§ The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Harry Ewing)I beg to move Amendment No. 27, in page 6, line 16, at end insert 'Scottish'.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerWith this amendment we shall take at the same time the following Government amendments: Nos. 94, 96, 117, 222, 223 and 232.
§ Mr. EwingThe purpose is largely of a technical nature. It is to achieve consistency in reference to the Scottish enactments in the Bill. The effect of these amendments is to substitute for the references to the Act of 1947 references to the "Scottish Act of 1947", and this term is to be construed as a reference to the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) (Scotland) Act 1947 by virtue of Clause 6(1). This conforms with the use of the term "Scottish Act of 1972" throughout the Bill which by virtue of Clause 6(1) is to be construed as a reference to the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972.
§ Mr. CrawfordI am delighted that once again Westminster has realised that north of the Border there is a separate nation with a separate legal system. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State, who is also responsible in some measure for devolution, will carry this matter to its logical conclusion and ensure that very soon we have a separate Scottish nation along with a separate Scottish legal system.
§ Mr. Harry EwingI shall not detain the House for long on the reference made by the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford). This matter has nothing to do with the debate on devolution. We are seeking to avoid confusion in reference to existing Scottish Acts enacted in 1947 and 1972. Without the clarification that we introduced in the amendment there would be some confusion. No doubt the reference that the hon. Gentleman has just made will be debated with much greater heat at a later date both inside and outside the House.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. OakesI beg to move Amendment No. 264, in page 6, line 21, at end insert—
'"agriculture" has the meaning assigned to it by section 290 of the Act of 1971 or section 275 of the Scottish Act of 1972'.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerWith this we may discuss Government Amendments Nos. 265, 267, 268, 339, 269, 298 and 300.
§ Mr. OakesThese are a series of drafting amendments. Their purpose is close to any lawyer's heart in that they put separate definitions into Clause 6 so that they can be found together. Amendment No. 264 and the second part of Amend- 968 ments Nos. 268 and 339 add phrases not previously included to various definitions of planning. Agriculture, the general development order and minerals are now referred to in various Government amendments and will be defined in Clause 6, where we seek to put them all together.
§ Mr. Graham PageI refer to Amendment No. 268, where the general development order is defined. We are relying greatly on the general development order as regards exempt development in the new schedule which we have already debated, which we shall come to vote on at a later stage. The position is that the Secretary of State could alter the statute—namely, the schedule to the Bill when it becomes an Act—by altering the general development order. The right hon. Gentleman could alter the exemptions. He could extend them or decrease them by altering the general development order. It is that order to which the Bill refers. I believe that I am correct in that interpretation.
In Amendment No. 269 we have the definition of "open space". I wish that the Minister would put the Bill in that open space, which includes
land which is a disused burial ground".
§ Mr. OakesI note what the right hon. Gentleman has said. In these amendments we are putting the various definitions into Clause 6. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the general development order and disused burial grounds. I cannot answer that point off the cuff, but I shall write to the right hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. RossiI thank the Under-Secretary of State for the help that he has given on this matter. The amendments cover one of the technical criticisms which we made in Committee. We pointed out that there were defects scattered throughout the Bill that made the Bill difficult to follow.
The only point that the hon. Gentleman has not met us on is that Clause 6 should be transferred to the beginning or end of the Bill. Those are normally the places to which people look for definitions and interpretations. We are shifting Clause 17 somewhere else, and I wonder whether in another place consideration might be given to shifting Clause 6. To move it to the beginning or end of the Bill would facilitate professional people 969 when making reference to this legislation. It would assist them to have the definitions collected in such a way rather than in the middle of the Bill.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendments made: No. 265, in page 6, line 24, at end insert—
'"buildings or works" includes waste materials, refuse and other matters deposited on land, and references to the erection or construction of buildings or works shall be construed accordingly,
common" includes any land subject to be enclosed under the Inclosure Acts 1845 to 1882, and any town or village green'.
§
No. 266, in page 7, leave out lines 1 to 3 and insert—
'"development land" has the meaning given by section 17 of this Act,
development order" has the meaning assigned to it by section 24 of the Act of 1971 or section 21 of the Scottish Act of 1972'.
§
No. 267, in page 7, line 9, at end insert—
'"erection", in relation to buildings, includes extension, alteration and re-erection'.
§
No. 268, in page 7, line 14, at end insert—
'"fuel or field garden allotment" means any allotment set out as a fuel allotment, or a field garden allotment, under an Inclosure Act, "general development order" means a development order made as a general order applicable (subject to such exceptions as may be specified therein) to all land in England and Wales, or to all land in Scotland'.—[Mr. Oakes.]
§ Mr. RossiI beg to move Amendment No. 30, in page 7, line 25 at end insert—
and shall include the right under a contract to acquire such an interest for the purpose of developing the land".This is an amendment to the definition as to what is a material interest in land. The clause defines a material interest as the freehold interest in a piece of land or a lease with not less than seven years to run. What we are saying in the amendment, and this is a legal matter, is that those interests should include a binding right to acquire such an interest in land. I hope that this is one of those technical amendments which the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept without difficulty.
§ Mr. John SilkinI am afraid that I have to disappoint the hon. Member. When this matter was discussed in Committee my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary said that in most cases where the phrase "material interest" was used 970 in the Bill it would be inappropriate to extend the provision to building agreements. The Committee amendment which produced a similar effect to the present one was not, therefore, acceptable.
However, my hon. Friend undertook to consider the places where the words "material interest" appeared in the Bill to see whether there was a need for a more limited amendment. We have done this, and it has become clear that an amendment is needed to the prior right provisions in Schedule 3(2). This amendment is tabled as Amendment No. 287. Similarly, some of the amendments for charities refer specifically to contracts to acquire interests. Apart from these we did not consider that any further amendment was needed.
The argument is often used by members of the Opposition—I have used it myself—"If the amendment is not actually needed does it matter if we put it in? It will at least cover the difficult situation." The trouble with that argument is that the courts do not so interpret it. The courts look at language if any matter comes before them and ask why such a provision is in a measure. They say that it clearly must mean something different. Because of that, and with some regret, I am afraid that I must resist the amendment.
§ Amendment negatived.
§
Amendments made: No. 339, in page 7, line 25, at end insert:
'"minerals" has the meaning assigned to it by section 290 of the Act of 1971 or section 275 of the Scottish Act of 1972'.;
§
No. 269, in line 27, at end insert:
'"open space" means any land laid out as a public garden or used for the purposes of public recreation, or land which is a disused burial ground'.;
§
No. 270, in line 33, at end insert:
'(2A) Subject to subsection (2B) below, a material interest in land shall be treated as outstanding for the purposes of this Act if—
(2B) A material interest in land shall not be treated as outstanding for the purposes of this Act if—
971
(2C) For the purposes of subsection (2B) above, a material interest in land shall not be treated as having been owned otherwise than by a charity at any time if, at that time, a charity had entered into a binding contract for its acquisition; and any order made under that subsection shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.'.—[Mr. John Silkin.]
§ 8.45 p.m.
§ Mr. John SilkinI beg to move Amendment No. 271, in page 7, line 41, at end insert—
'(3A) In this Act any reference to the time when planning permission is or was granted, in the case of planning permission granted on an appeal, is a reference to the time of the decision appealed against or, in the case of planning permission granted on an appeal in the circumstances mentioned in section 37 of the Act of 1971 or section 34 of the Scottish Act of 1972, a reference to the time when in accordance with that section notification of the decision is or was deemed to have been received.'.The effect of the amendment is that where a planning permission is granted on an appeal against a refusal or a deemed refusal, it shall be treated as having been granted on the date of that refusal or deemed refusal.There are various places in the Bill where the date of a grant of planning permission is quite crucial, especially in that section covered by Clauses 21, 22 and 23. Where such permission is granted on an appeal, the date of the grant is, for the purposes of the planning Act, regarded as being the date of the refusal or deemed refusal. However, this principle would not apply for the purposes of this Bill unless we made specific provision for it. The amendment, therefore, effectively imports the wording in Section 290(4) of the 1971 Act to bring the Bill into line with the existing planning procedures.
§ Mr. Graham PageI am grateful to the Minister. I think that the Opposition's Amendment No. 407 did this in a much shorter fashion by inserting some words in Section 290 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971. The right hon. Gentleman will not be surprised if I quote that Act or put a slight amendment into it in a neater way in Section 290(4) 972 which does the same thing as his longer amendment. But if he chooses the longer version, I am quite happy and shall not bother about the later amendment.
§ Mr. RossiSome time ago, in answer to a Written Question, the Secretary of State dealt with planning permissions granted before 12th September 1974. In that same answer, the right hon. Gentleman also referred to the situation of planning refusals. He said that the whole matter would be dealt with by administrative means. He also made a comment about refusals, which is virtually on all fours with this amendment. As we now have part of the right hon. Gentleman's proposition dealt with by a Written Answer, to the effect that he would deal with it by administrative means, and he is now proposing to deal with it in the statute, whereas the remainder of his Written Answer is not being dealt with in the statute, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will clarify the situation so that people are not confused between the two issues which arise.
§ Mr. John SilkinThe position remains as the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) has stated it. The dividing line comes on 12th September, with the exception of the excepted development regulations. To that extent, they will have a corresponding provision.
§ Amendment agreed to.