§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That if, at this day's sitting, an Amendment proposed to the Motion for an Address in answer to Her Majesty's Speech shall have been disposed of at or after Ten o'clock, the Amendment in the name of Mr. Jeremy Thorpe relating to the National Dock Labour Scheme may thereupon be moved, and the Question thereon shall be put forthwith.—[Mr. Edward Short.]
§ Mr. HendersonOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I regret rising 671 to oppose this motion, but first may I say on behalf of my hon. Friends how much we welcome your practice of selecting more than one amendment for debate and voting tonight? But I regret that the second amendment selected, that standing in the name of the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) and the names of his right hon. and hon. Friends, is one which has the support of only 13 Members of the House, whereas my hon. Friends and I of the Scottish National Party have tabled six amendments, in two of which we are supported by our hon. Friends from Plaid Cymru. The SNP and Plaid Cymru between us represent 14 Members. I rise to make this protest in some sense of sorrow and in no sense of hostility to the Liberals, but I feel that in the circumstances we are obliged to oppose the motion.
§ Mr. CrawfordFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I support my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Henderson). It is essential that certain things should be made plain. So far in the debate on the Gracious Speech, no Minister has answered any of the points raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart), South Angus (Mr. Welsh), Galloway (Mr. Thompson), Carmarthen (Mr. Evans), Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) or Merioneth (Mr. Thomas). It is necessary that Ministers should have a chance to answer so that the people of Scotland and Wales may know what is happening in this House. Unfortunately, the amendments standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Western Isles have not been selected for vote tonight. It is important, therefore, that the people of Scotland and Wales should know that tonight if we vote with the Conservatives we are in fact voting against the Government.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I do not think that we can now have the discussion which will no doubt take place later on the amendments.
§ Mr. ThorpeWhilst accepting the spirit in which this matter has been raised, Mr. Speaker, am I not right in saying that you announced yesterday which amendments would be called today? To the best of my recollection, no objection was raised then.
§ Mr. SpeakerThis is not a great encouragement to the Chair to make experiments in introducing innovations. I have gone some way to meeting the feeling that Standing Orders unduly restricted the possibility of moving amendments formally at the end of the debate. I have tried to meet that feeling. But if a business motion following a recommendation of the Select Committee on Procedure is to be debated at length, I do not think that the Chair will follow this experiment very often in future.
§ Mr. Gordon WilsonIs it not possible for the House itself to decide this matter on a Division, Mr. Speaker? If a motion has been presented, not by you but in the name of a Minister, is it not open to hon. Members to oppose it?
§ Mr. SpeakerCertainly it is in order to do so.
§ Mr. PowellWithout wishing to detain the House for more than a moment, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that there are two distinct issues here, one of which is entirely a course for yourself in your decision on selection and the second of which is the provision of time or opportunity, which is for the House itself and which is debatable.
I think it will be recognised that it was quite right for hon. Members in the Scottish National Party to raise as a point of debate that we are still very much in an experimental stage in regard to the problem with which you and the rest of the House are confronted, and that it is inherently undesirable that two amendments should be selected and divided upon, upon only one of which debate in the normal orderly way can take place. The only point, therefore, that I would wish to leave on the record is that we recognise that this is very much an experimental procedure and that in no way is this motion—which no doubt will be passed in a moment—a precedent or a solution to the problem which we have.
§ Mr. WellbelovedAs it is an experimental motion giving space to an experiment, can my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, who moved it, explain whether it is his intention to have the whole situation referred to the Select Committee on Procedure so that proper and deep consideration may be given to it?
673 I want to put a particular point to my right hon. Friend. If it is to be possible for two amendments to be called, it will be quite wrong if that privilege is confined to Opposition parties and not extended to groups within parties which have also put down amendments to the Loyal Address or amendments to other motions. For a long time now, it has been customary to put down amendments without serious intent, the sponsors being secure in the knowledge that they could not and would not be called.
§ Mr. HefferThat is not true.
§ Mr. WellbelovedIf my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) thinks that it is not true, perhaps he will join the debate and give the House the benefit of his wisdom as he has done on so many other occasions. I contend that it would be wrong if this experiment applied only to Opposition parties and did not extend to the whole House and to groups within the parties.
The second point on which I should like some information from the Leader of the House is whether this experiment might cause a change in the Standing Orders so that Members who had already spoken in the debate on the Queen's Speech would be able to speak again on an amendment which had been selected. If that were the position, I am afraid it would cause a great deal of discontent in the House. If, say, on the occasion of this first experiment we were to suffer listening to a Liberal speaker who has already spoken in the debate, that would be highly wrong.
I therefore hope that the Lord President will take this short debate seriously and will honour the House with a reply to some of the points which have been raised.
§ Mr. Maxwell-HyslopI should have thought the position was much simpler than has been made out. The debate on the Address is the most wide-ranging debate that our procedures allow, to the best of my knowledge. Anybody can discuss anything, in effect, whether or not an amendment is called. This is a debate which is in no way gagged or restricted by the Chair's selection or any selection of amendments. What we are discussing now has nothing at all to do with the 674 selection by the Chair. It is to do with an exception which the Leader of the House quite properly is making to our Standing Orders, and he can be approached through the normal channels on that matter. If some Members feel that they would like to have a vote, which, of course, is quite different from a debate, they are at liberty through the normal channels to make representations to the Leader of the House.
It would be wrong to represent what is a negotiation through the normal channels as being in some way a criticism of the Chair's selection. This is not to do with the Chair's selection. It would be if it were a normal debate, in which what hon. Members may say is closely circumscribed by the Chair's selection, but this is not the case. If hon. Members have not taken part in the debate and said what is burning them up, it is more likely to be because they could not be bothered to sit through five days of debate than that they have been restricted by the Chair.
§ Mr. SkinnerWhen you consider this matter, Mr. Speaker, I hope you will take into account the fact that one reason why my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved) rose to his feet to make that rather inane point about Members putting down amendments about which they are not too serious is the fact that one of the things that have motivated him lately during the current series of attempts to catch your eye is not unconnected with the fact that he is touting for votes on the Liaison Committee.
As you know, Mr. Speaker, when amendments have been put down to the Address or to any other Government proposals during the past 18 months, and perhaps on other occasions, some of my hon. Friends, usually the chairman of the Tribune Group, have made serious representations to you, not merely to remind you that amendments are on the Order Paper, but also, if possible, to try to instruct you to call those amendments—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. As I have repeatedly said, I always welcome the hon. Member's help but I do not think I would be prepared to take his instructions.
§ Mr. WigleyFurther to the point made by the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop), may I mention two matters which are pertinent to the situation? First it is the right of Members who have participated in the debate in the course of five days to have the points which have been raised by them answered. This is a very relevant matter. In the debate which we have had, many of the points raised from the benches in my part of the House have not been answered and, indeed, could not be answered.
Secondly, the interpretation of votes, as we have seen earlier, is based on voting with Labour or with the Conservatives. Unless amendments are allowed to be called, little opportunity is provided for third opinions to get through.
§ The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Edward Short)What all this is about is an attempt to implement a recommendation of the Select Committee. You made your selection yesterday, Mr. Speaker. The reason why I put the motion down is to enable the House to vote on the amendments which have been selected by you, Mr. Speaker. It is as simple as that. It is an attempt to help the House. No doubt you, and certainly I, will watch this experiment to see how it goes.
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 337, Noes 11.
677| Division No. 2.] | AYES | [3.57 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) |
| Adley, Robert | Corbett, Robin | Graham, Ted |
| Allaun, Frank | Corrie, John | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) |
| Archer, Peter | Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Gray, Hamish |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) | Grimond, Rt Hon J. |
| Ashley, Jack | Crawshaw, Richard | Grocott, Bruce |
| Ashton, Joe | Cryer, Bob | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Cunningham, Dr J (Whiteh) | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Atkinson, Norman | Dalyell, Tam | Hardy, Peter |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefleld) |
| Bates, Alf | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss |
| Bean, R. E. | Deakins, Eric | Hatton, Frank |
| Beith, A. J. | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Havers, Sir Michael |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Dempsey, James | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Benyon, W. | Doig, Peter | Hayman, Mrs Helene |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Dormand, J. D. | Healey, Rt Hon Denis |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Duffy, A. E. P. | Heath, Rt Hon Edward |
| Bishop, E. S. | Dunlop, John | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Dunn, James A. | Hicks, Robert |
| Boardman, H. | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Higgins, Terence L. |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Edge, Geoff | Horam. John |
| Bottomley, Peter | Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Hordern, Peter |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) | Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Elliott, Sir William | Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H) |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes(Brent) | Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) |
| Bradford, Rev Robert | English, Michael | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Huckfield, Les |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Evans, John (Newton) | Hughes, Mark (Durham) |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Brown, Hugh D (Provan) | Eyre, Reginald | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Fairgrieve, Russell | Hunter, Adam |
| Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) | Farr, John | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Buchan, Norman | Faulds, Andrew | Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) |
| Buchanan, Richard | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) |
| Budgen, Nick | Flannery, Martin | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | James, David |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Janner, Greville |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Canavan, Dennis | Fookes, Miss Janet | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) |
| Cant, R. B. | Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Stechford) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Forrester, John | Jessel, Toby |
| Carter, Ray | Freeson, Reginald | John, Brynmor |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Freud, Clement | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) |
| Cartwright, John | Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Jones, Arthur (Daventry) |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Clemitson, Ivor | George, Bruce | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) | Ginsburg, David | Jopling, Michael |
| Cohen, Stanley | Glyn, Dr Alan | Kelley, Richard |
| Colquhoun, Mrs Maureen | Godber, Rt Hon Joseph | Kerr, Russell |
| Concannon, J. D. | Gourlay, Harry | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | King, Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Kinnock, Neil | Neubert, Michael | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Kitson, Sir Timothy | Newens, Stanley | Stanley, John |
| Knight, Mrs Jill | Newton, Tony | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Lamborn, Harry | Noble, Mike | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Lamond, James | Nott, John | Stoddart, David |
| Lamont, Norman | Ogden, Eric | Stokes, John |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Onslow, Cranley | Stonehouse Rt Hon John |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Orbach, Maurice | Stott, Roger |
| Lee, John | Ovenden, John | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Le Marchant, Spencer | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Strang, Gavin |
| Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Paisley, Rev Ian | Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. |
| Lewis, Arthur (Newham N) | Pardoe, John | Summerskill, Hon D Shirley |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Park, George | Swain, Thomas |
| Lipton, Marcus | Parker, John | Taylor, Mrs. Ann (Bolton W) |
| Litterick, Tom | Parry, Robert | Tebbit, Norman |
| Loveridge, John | Pattie, Geoffrey | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Loyden, Eddie | Pavitt, Laurie | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Luard, Evan | Perry, Ernest | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Lyon, Alexander (York) | Peyton, Rt Hon John | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon |
| McAdden, Sir Stephen | Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch | Tierney, Sydney |
| McCrindle, Robert | Prescott, John | Tinn, James |
| McCusker, H. | Price, C. (Lewisham W) | Tomlinson, John |
| MacFarquhar, Roderick | Price, David (Eastlelgh) | Tomney, Frank |
| McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Prior, Rt Hon James | Torney, Tom |
| Mackenzie, Gregor | Radice, Giles | Townsend, Cyril D. |
| Mackintosh, John P. | Raison, Timothy | Tuck, Raphael |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Rathbone, Tim | Urwin, T. W. |
| McNamara, Kevin | Rees-Davies, W. R. | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Mahon, Simon | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Marks, Kenneth | Richardson, Miss Jo | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Marquand, David | Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Rifkind, Malcolm | Wall, Patrick |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Walters, Dennis |
| Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | Ward, Michael |
| Mates, Michael | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, NW) | Watkins, David |
| Mather, Carol | Roderick, Caerwyn | Watkinson, John |
| Mawby, Ray | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | Weetch, Ken |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Rodgers, William (Stockton) | Weitzman, David |
| Mayhew, Patrick | Rooker, J. W. | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Rose, Paul B. | White, James (Pollok) |
| Meacher, Michael | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Mendelson, John | Sedgemore, Brian | Whitlock, William |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Selby, Harry | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Millan, Bruce | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, lichen) | Short. Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C) | Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton) |
| Molyneaux, James | Short, Mrs Renee(Wolv NE) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Monro, Hector | Sillars, James | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Sims, Roger | Woodall, Alec |
| Moonman, Eric | Skinner, Dennis | Woof, Robert |
| Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Small, William | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) | Younger, Hon George |
| Mudd, David | Snape, Peter | |
| Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | Spearing, Nigel | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Spriggs, Leslie | Mr. Donald Coleman and |
| Neave, Airey | Sproat, Iain | Mr. Joseph Harper. |
| Nelson, Anthony | Stallard, A. W. | |
| NOES | ||
| Bain, Mrs Margaret | Reid, George | |
| Crawford, Douglas | Stewart, Donald (Western Isles) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Thompson, George | Mr. Douglas Henderson and |
| Kilfedder, James | Welsh, Andrew | Mr. Dafydd Wigley. |
| Watt, Hamish | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) | |
| MacCormick, Iain |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§
Ordered,
That if, at this day's sitting, an Amendment proposed to the Motion for an Address in answer to Her Majesty's Speech shall have been disposed of at or after Ten o'clock, the Amendment in the name of Mr. Jeremy Thorpe relating to the National Dock Labour Scheme may thereupon be moved, and the Question thereon shall be put forthwith.