§ 13. Mr. Mawbyasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what proposals she has to assist United Kingdom pensioners living abroad in countries where there are no reciprocal arrangements and where the country of residence does not provide them with pension entitlement.
§ Mr. O'MalleyWe have no proposals for modifying the existing policy which has been continued under successive Governments and under which retirement and widows' pensions are already payable in such countries at the rate in force when the pensioner left this country or when he first qualified if he was then living abroad. We are always willing, where possible, to consider appropriate reciprocal arrangements with these countries.
§ Mr. MawbyIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have had a sympathetic letter from his hon. Friend the Undersecretary of State regarding two retired persons in Canada? Is he further aware that it is still the position that only one-third of the pensioners living abroad come within the reciprocal arrangement? The people in Canada about who I am concerned are still not within the reciprocal arrangement. As Canada is a member of the old Commonwealth, will steps be taken to speed up the negotiations which I understand are in progress at least to ensure that we get a reciprocal arrangement with old Commonwealth countries?
§ Mr. O'MalleyI assure the hon. Gentleman that where it is possible to establish appropriate reciprocal arrangements the Government are prepared to do so. It is true, as the hon. Gentleman has said, that there have been continuing discussions on an intermittent basis, since 1972, between the Canadian Government and Her Majesty's Government. I must point out that this is a complex matter, and I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman that I would assume an early conclusion to the discussions. I must also point out that to make payments abroad on the lines that are sometimes suggested, including 213 reciprocal arrangements, would involve an extra £35 million a year in public expenditure. As the hon. Gentleman knows—I am not making a sharp remark to him, because I appreciate the nature of his question—we are expecting, any day, a letter from his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition that will tell us where public expenditure cuts are to be made rather than where increases might be made.
§ Mrs. KnightWhat estimate has the right hon. Gentleman made of the number of persons in this category? Is he aware that some of them have had to move to foreign countries for health reasons, among other reasons? As he has given us an estimate of the amount involved, has he any idea of the numbers involved?
§ Mr. O'MalleyWe have about 172,000 pensioners abroad, and 108,000 do not receive increases. On the other hand, 52,000 in Australia and 17,000 in New Zealand may be helped by the reciprocal arrangements which enable residents in this country to be treated as residents in those countries as regards entitlement to the Australian and New Zealand residence-based pensions.