HC Deb 08 May 1975 vol 891 cc1595-8
7. Mr. Budgen

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations have been made to him calling for amendment of the Children and Young Persons Act 1969, so as to make it unlawful for children under 17 years of age to be sent to prison whilst awaiting trial for offences for which, because of their age, a sentence of imprisonment cannot be imposed.

28. Rees-Davies

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will take immediate action to prevent children under 17 years of age being remanded in custody in prison whilst awaiting trial for offences for which, because of their age, a sentence of imprisonment cannot be imposed.

Mr. Roy Jenkins

The Children and Young Persons Act 1969 contains provision for doing away with remands to prison of young people under 17 years of age who are awaiting trial. A number of bodies have made representations urging the implementation of these provisions, but this cannot be done until adequate secure accommodation is available for these young people within the local authority community homes system. My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Social Services and for Wales give this need the highest priority they can in considering local authorities' building proposals.

Mr. Budgen

Does the Home Secretary agree that it is a scandal that young persons should be harmed by association with hardened criminals in prison, and also by regarding themselves as hardened criminals? Does he also agree that it is the mark of a civilised, humane Government that they should concentrate not on expensive, unnecessary legislation but on the real duties of the State—and that those duties include the provision of adequate accommodation for those suspected of crime?

Mr. Jenkins

Yes, I agree. The position in this respect causes me great concern, and that concern arises partly for the reasons given by the hon. Gentleman. I think lie exaggerates the extent to which there could be association with hardened criminals since in such circumstances there is complete dissociation. However, I am still unhappy about young people being in prison at all, and about people both young and adult becoming accustomed to prison when it is not necessary and when subsequently there will not be a custodial sentence. There is a difficulty in providing secure accommodation in the community home system for young people within this age group. This is not a new problem. We are dealing with the facilities to back up the 1969 Act. If there has been a failure to provide such accommodation as quickly as we would all desire, it cannot be laid exclusively at the door of the Labour Government.

Mr. Bagier

Does the Home Secretary agree that within the Act some difficulty is being experienced in providing local community homes for youngsters in this age group? Is he aware that in Sunderland crimes in this age group have more than doubled in a year, and in a period of eight years have risen by about 600 per cent.? Does he also agree that a small group of youngsters require home care and that there is a feeling within the community that when these youngsters are referred by the courts to the local authorities their cases are not being properly dealt with?

Mr. Jenkins

I am well aware of what my hon. Friend said and to a substantial extent I share his views. In a difficult criminal situation, this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect—namely, an increase in crimes committed by persons in this age group. I do not in any way wish to minimise the seriousness of the situation. The number of people concerned in offences who need secure accommodation is limited but is still in excess of the amount of secure accommodation that is available at present. I do not think the House would wish me to deal with the problem by saying that while that secure accommodation is not available such people should not be kept in conditions of security at all.

Mr. Rees-Davies

Does the Home Secretary agree that there are two additional factors which he should take into account? The first is that, given the need for secure accommodation in certain instances—I share the right hon. Gentleman's view on that matter—community centres, detention centres and, in certain instances, borstal institutions are preferable to prison. Secondly, given the fact that they must be kept under security, what provision is made to ensure that if young people are sent to prison they are segregated from those who could seriously harm them?

Mr. Jenkins

Borstals in general are not suitable to remand procedures. I had the opportunity of opening a borstal two weeks ago in Leicestershire covering the whole area of the Midlands and containing remand facilities. This institution will have an important rôle to play and is the sort of development we need to deal with the problem. However, that does not deal with the whole problem throughout the country. On the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I assure him that the utmost steps are taken to ensure that there is no intermingling of these young people with hardened criminals in a higher age group.

Mr. R. C. Mitchell

When does my right hon. Friend expect sufficient alternative secure accommodation to be available? Is he aware that on this topic we have been given the same answer by Labour and Conservative Governments over the past five years?

Mr. Jenkins

I should hesitate to place a day upon it, particularly as the matter touches local authorities and their budgets. Since the transfer of powers which went through under the Conservative Government, the matter is one for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services rather than for me, but she and I have met deputations, including deputations from the Magistrates' Association and other interested bodies. I think that a higher priority is now being given to this matter than ever before.

Mr. Alison

Given that the Home Secretary is willing to consider some flexibility of priorities in response to need, is he satisfied that plans and resources are available and are adequate as they stand to meet the increase in juvenile crime? Has he made any representations to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services to revise the plans upwards?

Mr. Jenkins

Yes, we have been in close touch on these matters. We have had meetings with interested bodies, and I gave them a substantial degree of reassurance. I do not pretend that the problem will be solved overnight. I have already said that it is a problem to which a higher priority is being given in my right hon. Friend's budget than has been given to the matter by any of her predecessors.