HC Deb 13 March 1975 vol 888 cc975-97

11.38 p.m.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Roland Moyle)

I beg to move, That the Community Relations (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 1975, a draft of which was laid before this House on 13th February, be approved. The purpose of this order is to make changes in the statutory machinery for helping to improve community relations in Northern Ireland. The changes are the outcome of a comprehensive review of this machinery initiated following the resumption of direct rule in Northern Ireland in the spring of 1974. It may be helpful if I set out the background.

In 1969, following a period of intercommunal conflict in the Province, two new statutory bodies were set up. One was a new Ministry, the Department of Community Relations, and the other was a statutory body, the Northern Ireland Community Relations Corn mission. They both had the same purpose, broadly speaking, and that was to work for the improvement of community relations.

The Ministry was to pursue this line primarily by working from its base within Government and the commission was to concentrate on work in the community with a view to promoting maximum mutual understanding between Catholic and Protestant. This is not the occasion to rehearse all the activities of those two bodies. It is getting rather late to do so.

I should like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all the men and women who gave generously of their time and energy—a large number were voluntary —to serve as members and as the chairman of the Community Relations Commission. I hope that the House will join me in that.

In April 1974 it was announced that, following a review upon which the Executive had decided, in the context of power sharing there was no continuing need for an independent commission to act as an intermediary between Government and people. The Executive and my predecessor, Mr. Ivan Cooper, therefore proposed the abolition of the commission and the absorption of its functions by the Department of Community Relations. These proposals had not been put into operation when the Executive fell in May 1974 and the United Kingdom Government had to decide what to do about them.

The conclusion was reached that, in the circumstances, it was best to proceed to dissolve the commission and make an entirely fresh start. By the time my noble Friend the Under-Secretary arrived on the scene there was a practical factor. That concerned the fact that once the Executive had announced its decision to abolish the commission the morale of the staff was affected. They were going off to seek other employment. They had no sure prospect of the commission continuing in existence. It was impossible to hold it together as a suitable body for the performance of its functions.

In the course of the Government's review of the machinery in this sphere we looked at the Department of Community Relations. The Department was by then a very small one and it was highly unlikely that within the Civil Service it would carry the weight that would allow its voice and arguments to be heard within the Government machine. Much of its work could in any case be done by other Government Departments. It was at this juncture that I took over responsibility for community relations policy from my noble Friend Lord Donaldson.

The purpose of the draft order is to give effect to the conclusions we reached in the review. Its main provisions are in Articles 3 and 4. Article 3 abolishes the Department of Community Relations and the Community Relations Commission and provides that any residual property, rights or liabilities of those bodies shall be inherited by the Department of Education. Article 4 transfers to the Department of Education all the statutory responsibilities of the Department of Community Relations and also the principle responsibilities of the Community Relations Commission.

The Department of Education was considered the most appropriate Department because the work of promoting better understanding between the two communities is, in the broadest sense of the word, educational.

Secondly, the statutory responsibility of the Department of Community Relations in social facilities and sport and recreation are germane to the responsibilities of the Department of Education. Sport and recreation was the responsibility of the Department of Education until 1st January 1974, so that after a brief interval these responsibilities are going back from where they came. The great majority of the amenities assisted by the Department of Community Relations under the social need programme were also broadly in the area of social recreation, so that the Department of Education was thought to be a natural home for them. For example, community centres, which were the largest portion of the programme, can be seen appropriately in this context. Facilities for young people such as adventure playgrounds and responsibilities for the youth service have always rested with the Department of Education.

After this distribution of functions there remain other auxiliary aspects of community relations which could have gone to any one of a number of Departments, but it was decided for administrative reasons that they should follow the whole of the Department of Community Relations into the Department of Education with one exception. That is that the "spruce up" campaign—restoring street lighting, painting and cleaning up street furniture—has gone to the Department of the Environment. I have referred to the rôle of the Community Relations Commission in the context of improving knowledge and dispelling prejudice. There is, of course, also the responsibility for research into community relations problems, and this has been carried out at academic institutions. Under Article 4(3) the Department of Education will undertake responsibility for these matters.

There are a number of bodies which work on community relations matters, and that paragraph provides that grants can be paid to these voluntary bodies. Corrymeela Community is one and Protestant and Catholic Encounter is another. I am sure that I speak for all hon. Members in expressing my thanks to these bodies for the work which they have already done, and in wishing them every strength and success in their future efforts.

Article 4(2) gives the Department of Education the function of formulating and sponsoring policies for the improvement of community relations in Northern Ireland. This was the general statutory function of the Department of Community Relations. It is re-enacted here in order to make it clear that the Department of Education will pursue the same overall ends and objectives as the Department of Community Relations.

Although it does not come strictly within the scope of the order I am sure that hon. Members will want me to say something about the way the Government propose to carry on these functions in the future.

First, there is universal recognition of the urgent need to improve social amenities throughout Northern Ireland, especially at neighbourhood level. District councils are already deeply involved in this sort of provision in a number of localities, and they also have a statutory duty to provide social and cultural facilities. I am now asking them on behalf of the Department of Education to do more, and there is at present a joint working party between the district councils and the Department of Education to allow them to do so.

Secondly, we have noted as a Government over recent times the emergence in Northern Ireland of community associations, and their interest in community work and activities. The great general objective of these associations is to act as pressure groups on behalf of the needs of their areas and to work with the statutory agencies in meeting those needs. Often, they are found at their strongest in those areas where the problems are greatest. As a Government, we intend to support these community associations and to assist their growth as the best possible foundation for successful democracy, although we realise that there are a number of problems which will have to be watched carefully in carrying out this policy.

So, here again, I am asking the district councils to provide assistance to these bodies on behalf of the Department of Education. There are a number of their members who have had little experience in social organisation up until now. They want help with constitutions, running meetings, carrying out administrative functions, auditing their accounts, doing balance sheets, and so on. The district councils can help them a lot. In addition, when they become much larger, they may require their own resource centres, as they term them, and occasional full-time officers. The district councils would be available to provide grants for this purpose.

We are now having discussions to see whether there is agreement and support for an independent body, which might be called an institute or centre for community relations, and which could concern itself with research, publications, conferences and other related academic aspects of the work of the Community Relations Commission. I have it in mind that it would be financed largely by the Department of Education, but I hope that it would also obtain finance from some independent sources.

Community activity, and the formation of community associations in which people come together and work in groups, has to be encouraged and guided, and the district councils will provide them with advice. In addition, the health and social services boards will employ community workers. This is in line with the Seebohm doctrine, which is received doctrine in the rest of the United Kingdom. Their major rôle will be to assist and support community groups. In addition, the youth officers of the area education and library boards will be giving support to community groups in youth work. All these acti- vities, whether by district councils, area boards or central Government, must be seen as related parts of one overall strategy, which is to give genuine community support to the people of Northern Ireland.

I believe that in pursuing this path we are beginning a process which could be of great help in cementing good social relationships. I hope therefore that these proposals will be accepted by the House, to which I commend them.

11.49 p.m.

Mr. John Biggs-Davison (Epping Forest)

The Opposition, too, salute those who serve the commission which is being abolished and all who work for harmony throughout the community in Northern Ireland.

I shall be very brief. I shall leave to others better qualified than I any comment on the new organisation. The Minister made it sound a bit complicated. I only hope that there will not be too much organisation.

We shall await with interest the report of the joint working party. It is not clear to me how, in community relations matters, the Department of Education will fit in with area boards and district councils. But we shall await the report of the joint working party.

The Minister also mentioned the various community groups and tenants' associations which had sprung up during the troubles. Some of these played a powerful part during the Ulster Workers' Council strike, and more recently there have been disturbing reports that undesirable para-military elements have extended their influence through some of these bodies. I notice the hon. Gentleman said that there are problems to be watched.

11.50 p.m.

Mr. McCusker (Armagh)

From time to time the present Northern Ireland administration have been accused of a lack of direction and perhaps even indecision. I suppose earlier this evening we had an echo of that in terms of "drifting too far". Over the past few weeks I have noticed that in areas where Northern Ireland nerves are not so exposed their scruples are not so displayed and they can be decisive and incisive when it suits their purpose.

For example, a few weeks ago, "at a stroke" the whole of the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service was destroyed. In one short, terse sentence in an order similar to this one they swept it away. That sentence was: On the appointed day the Board shall be dissolved. On that occasion I disagreed with the order and spoke forcefully against it, and I believe that my experience since has confirmed my opinion on that night.

Tonight, "at a stroke", they are destroying a Department of Government and also a statutory commission. Once again it is done with a commendable economy of words: As from the coming into operation of this order the Department of Community Relations and the Northern Ireland Community Relations Commission shall cease to exist. This time I do not think they are making a mistake. I hope that the motivation behind this action is a new sense of realism and that it will be reflected in any further Northern Ireland legislation which is brought to the House. Only today the Minister responsible for Manpower and Commerce indicated that he hoped soon to bring forward a "Fair Employment Bill". I hope that the minds which produced this order will look closely at the details of the Bill.

As the Minister said, the Ministry of Community Relations was created in 1969. It was the first new Ministry to be created in Northern Ireland for 25 years. It was welcomed by all the opposition parties at Stormont. Mr. Vivian Simpson of the Northern Ireland Labour Party went so far as to say that today marks the beginning of a new era … the terms of this Bill will be studied to the furthest points of the earth. I wonder whether the order will be studied to the furthest ends of the earth.

The hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) and his party were lavish in their praise of the Act which brought this Ministry into operation. I wonder why the hon. Gentleman is not here tonight either to object to the order or to enlighten us on why he has changed his mind on this issue.

At that time, in 1969, there were only two Members of the Stormont Parliament who expressed reservations about the matter. Mr. Paddy Kennedy of the Republican Labour Party said: No Government, not even a Unionist Government, can change men's attitudes or men's minds by legislation. Mr. Basil McIvor said: One cannot legislate for people to live in harmony one with another. Those are comments which I have made on a number of occasions since I came here, and although I do not have very much in common with those two Members, I agree with the sentiments which they expressed six years before I did. If those sentiments were true in 1969, how can anyone argue that they are not even more relevant today after six years when the gulf between the two communities has yawned wider and wider under the atrocities of the Provisional IRA?

In the 1969 debate the first Minister of Community Relations in Northern Ireland said this: The removal of prejudice is a long-term educational task … Our job will be to inquire, advise, educate and persuade. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman got the message that he was even then expressing. To some extent, perhaps he was spelling out his own doom, because if he had not been so wrapped up in that new toy in 1969 he would have realised that this is a matter for education.

Over the past six years there have perhaps been too many well-intentioned people, misguided though they may have been, who have dabbled in what they called community relations. Money has been poured down the drain. There have been free holiday schemes. There have been Operations Spruce-up. I remember one Operation Spruce-up which concerned itself primarily with lifting up the stones the next day from the riots the night before.

I was a member of the Committee of Health and Social Services. I remember expressing amazement that £90,000 was being spent on employing people primarily in the trouble-torn areas of West Belfast brushing the streets the next day clearing up broken glass and stones from the riots of the night before. Some people believed that that was an expression of community relations.

One must assume that we are all genuinely interested in improving relationships, not only those within and between the communities, but also the relationship which exists, or which should exist, between the whole community and the Government. If we are, we must examine these proposals closely.

The Minister of State has cleared up many of the questions which I wanted to raise. For example, the Community Relations Commission, which is to be abolished, recommended over a year ago that a greater proportion of community development work should be passed to the district councils. The Minister told us that a substantial proportion of this work is to be passed to them. I welcome that, as do my colleagues, because they know the problems in their areas.

We hope that the district councils will allocate judiciously the funds available to them. They are the bodies which could best sponsor Operation Spruce-up. It would give district councils, which at present feel that they have no power, at least a little to contribute to their own locality. Perhaps that power could be delegated down from the Ministry to the district councils. I hope that this point will be examined.

With regard to the provisions in the Social Need (Grants) Act, is the Minister confident that the Ministry of Education is the right body to administer this measure? As he has pointed out, unfortunately it has been used primarily for the provision of community centres. These community centres, far from in fact fostering community relations in the sense that we would all like, have provided a focal point in an already segregated society and have solidified local opinion. Perhaps the money that was spent on these smaller community centres in little districts would have been better spent on more large recreational centres which could accommodate a range of people across the religious, the political, and the social divide.

In these recreation centres more genuine community relations might evolve than could ever possibly exist in a local centre which is a focal point for the prejudice which perhaps already exists. I hope that the Department of Education will not supply too much money to provide more of these facilities. If, as we hope, this measure is a success I hope that there will be some saving of the amout of money which was projected for the year 1975–76. I am tired of coming to the House as a representative from Northern Ireland and appearing continually to beg. We always appear almost in the guise of paupers. That has come through to an extent in this debate. There was envisaged for 1975–76 for the Department of Community Relations some £3½ million. It seems that this measure will bring about a saving. It would be nice to know that we could achieve the same results or better results and effect a saving into the bargain.

It was estimated that, during 1975–76, ninety people would be working in the Department. I should be interested to know how that complement will be affected now that the responsibility has been transferred to the Department of Education. I should like an assurance that all the proper consultations have taken place with the staff and that their interests have been safeguarded in the transfer.

I hope that tonight we have witnessed the forerunner of a determined campaign to clear away a lot more of the bureaucratic clutter which has gathered round the Stormont administration over the years. This measure demonstrates that when it wishes this administration can be decisive and effective on certain issues. If this example is anything to go by, I hope that we shall see the Government turning their mind to a number of other changes which we all want to see.

12.3 a.m.

Mr. Robert J. Bradford (Belfast. South)

I shall contribute to the debate in such a way as to concur with my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker) and at the same time to become, as it were, a devil's advocate. In so doing I shall seek an assurance from the Minister of State that we shall exploit the situation at a much later stage, if the transfer from the Department of Community Relations to the Department of Education presents difficulties, in getting projects under way quickly and efficiently.

I assume that all hon. Members are aware of the value of a devil's advocate. No doubt they realise that a devil's advocate does not oppose a particular objective but seeks to establish its merits and put its case beyond a shadow of doubt. That is what I seek to do by way of raising possible difficulties.I hope that the Minister will consider them and give some categorical assurances.

First, it is quite possible that the Department of Education, if it is faced with financial difficulties, may cut back on its expenditure. The first activity that might suffer in such a cut-back would be a peripheral activity such as community relations. I seek an assurance that the cost of great economic pressure in Northern Ireland will not mean that a cut-back will take place with the result that the function of community relations will be seriously impaired, if not removed altogether. We regard the work that the Department of Education will shortly take on as vital in Northern Ireland. We want an assurance that it will not be regarded as a peripheral activity and suffer initially from any proposed cutback should expenditure need to be curtailed.

Secondly, the Department of Education is by nature somewhat larger than the Department of Community Relations. In the more intimate surroundings of the old Department of Community Relations community leaders and representatives had great accessibility to those who took decisions, so decisions could be implemented fairly quickly. We therefore desire an assurance that when the Department of Community Relations is absorbed into the Department of Education that accessibility for community leaders will still obtain. Community leaders who have projects to place before the Department of Education should enjoy the same kind of immediate accessibility, intimate reception and sympathetic consideration as they have enjoyed hitherto.

I should like to pay tribute to a large number of men and women in Northern Ireland who have acted in a voluntary capacity and assumed leadership, sometimes in very difficult situations, and given a firm and important directive to their respective communities. The Minister has already paid tribute to these people. I concur with his comments in that respect.

The praises of these people remain largely unsung. There are many respectable, highly competent members of society among them. In my constituency I enjoy the support and industry of such people, who seek only to serve the community by making available their talents, time and resources. We appreciate the tremendous work that such people have done in the past. Therefore, we seek a categorical assurance that the Department of Education will encourage and receive them with the same sympathy as the Department of Community Relations, which will soon be defunct.

I believe that there may be a rigidity in this larger Department—this is often the case with any great bureaucracy—which will not be helpful to those who would seek to continue to serve the community in this voluntary capacity.

I will give an example. In North Belfast there is a difficult area with many social problems. I refer to Rathcoole. Some leaders in that area have sought to channel the energies and direct the activities of young people. To this end they have sought buildings belonging to local schools. One or two devious methods have been adopted to avoid placing these buildings at the disposal of the community. Fears for and deterioration in the fabric of these buildings have been put forward as excuses for not making them available. But at the end of the day there was an immediate need. Fortunately, certain people were prepared to make available their time, energy and expertise, but the Department of Education did not co-operate and, indeed, was inflexible. We would seek an assurance from the Minister that this kind of bureaucratic indifference would not be reflected in that kind of situation in North Belfast or in any other part of the Province.

I also draw the Minister's attention, in the matter of inflexibility, to the question of full-time youth leaders. The Department of Education insists that before a full-time youth leader is appointed he should have completed a statutory course. We can appreciate the logic of that and the necessity for being qualified for youth leadership, but in the kind of situation where immediate need exists, inflexibility is not always the best thing to adhere to. In such a situation, where immediate need exists, the Department of Education should assist by undertaking to appoint a youth leader who would, in turn, undertake to participate in a training course within a short period.

I fully appreciate the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh about the saving of money and of manpower, while being concerned for those who will have to find other employment, but we accept the need for the Department of Community Relations to be placed in the Department of Education. I ask the Minister to bear in mind the points made, and I hope that appropriate assurances will be forthcoming.

12.12 a.m.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

shall continue on the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker) and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Bradford). First, I should make it clear that I was not a member of the Stormont Parliament when these two institutions were brought into existence, because I was of the same conviction as the two members who have been quoted by my hon. Friend, one from the Republican side of that House and the other from the Unionist side. It should be put on record that the Unionist was converted and became Minister of Community Relations, so that he sold whatever convictions he had had about this matter and took paid office in Stormont. He was the last Minister for Community Relations in the old Stormont Parliament.

At the time this legislation was initiated at Stormont and when the Ministry of Community Relations and the Community Relations Commission were set up, anybody who dared to speak out about those institutions was immediately labelled as one who did not want good community relations in the Province.

Here tonight, under direct rule, we have these two bodies being wiped away. No local administration over there in Ulster would have dared to do such a thing, and had it done so, this House would have exploded. There would have been criticisms that these two institutions, brought into existence to solve a problem, were being wiped out by a reactionary local administration sitting at Stormont. However, it now seems that this House is learning slowly but thoroughly the wisdom of those who, when these institutions were brought into existence, voiced their objections to them, not because they did not believe in good community relations but because they did not believe that this was the way to bring about that objective.

I gladly pay tribute to those who took part in these institutions. I am thinking especially of Dr. Maurice Hayes, who was head of the Community Relations Commission. He learned that this was not the way to do it. He resigned, and no one was appointed to take his place. He has taken on a greater community relations exercise, having been appointed assistant to the Chairman of this mysterious Convention which will at some time be elected in Northern Ireland. I am sure that the House wishes him well in his new post. Although we disagree with those two institutions, it would be churlish not to pay tribute to his work.

The last Minister for Community Relations in the Executive under the Assembly, Mr. Ivan Cooper, who is a member of the SDLP, decided that the commission should be done away with, although the staff of the commission lobbied every member of the Assembly and protested vigorously. He too, had learned slowly but surely that those who had voiced doubts about its inauguration were right. I believe that the Department of Education is the right Department to handle community relation in Northern Ireland.

We welcome the Minister's declaration about the future and the fact that he puts first the right of elected representations in the new district councils to take priority in this field. They cannot be bypassed here. The more powers that go back to the grass-roots elected representatives, the better for the people. This strengthening of local government could be the first step in the building of a stable society in Northern Ireland. Even those who are bitterly opposed politically have now reached that conclusion.

Under proportional representation, there is every chance for anyone with real support in the community to be elected to the district councils. This is not the old system under which the splitting of the vote could keep out someone with substantial support. Those who might not be elected under the British democratic system can be elected under the STV. The Minister is moving in the right direction when he says that the district councils will be the first people he will consult by means of a working committee. We welcome that.

I would issue a warning. There is deep antagonism to the elected representative in some of the smaller community associations. In East Belfast there was a meeting the other day between the East Belfast community associations and the elected representatives. The community associations politely told their Assembly members and councillors that they wanted nothing to do with them, and that they bitterly opposed the Minister for daring to suggest that power should be given to the district councils. Those people, who have no respect for the elected representatives, are not the type of people to try to bring about good community relations. When they cannot have good community relations with their own elected representatives they cannot do much good in improving community relations in their district.

I am glad that the Minister will give district councils the right to pass on the money to the community associations. No doubt in their wisdom the councils will know the associations that should have the money and should use it for the best possible ends.

When will the working party report? How soon after the passing of the order will the added responsibilities for the district councils be passed on? When I was a member of the old Stormont Parliament an Act was introduced by the first Minister of Community Relations to provide help for the urban areas. Those of us who represented rural areas were incensed that there was to be help for those areas and none for rural areas. Recreational facilities are needed not only in those districts where there has been trouble but in those where there has been none and where the people have conducted themselves according to the laws of the country, especially in the rural areas.

We have fairly large housing estates scattered throughout the rural districts, and they have no playgrounds or football pitches for the children. They have nothing. They were discriminated against—I use the word carefully—by the Ministry of Community Relations, which said that all the money should go to the urban areas. I took exception to that and tried to amend the Act, but I got short shrift in Stormont. I trust that the money spent on such projects will be spread throughout the Province.

Another vital matter was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South. The education authorities have so far not been prepared to make the amenities and educational facilities in many of the schools available to the young people at night. I hope that the Minister will look into the matter. As long as the young people are under proper supervision and control, and are properly organised, why should more money be spent on putting up a community centre and providing it with recreational facilities and amenities when such facilities are lying idle at night in the local school? The education authorities should use all their facilities to the full.

I understand that one of the disused schools in my constituency, at Bush Mills, is being taken over, and that there is a programme in mind to turn it into a large centre for community relations and to help all the young people throughout the Province. I trust that that school will also be used by the young local people to help them in their community work.

Those are some of the problems that must be faced by the Department of Education when it shoulders this responsibility. I welcome the order, and I wish the Minister well. I trust that the working party will soon report, and that the district councils will have this extra power and will be able to show the people of Northern Ireland that as elected district councils they are doing good work in this area.

12.24 a.m.

Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

At this early hour of the morning I shall not detain the House for more than a few minutes.

For many years I have advocated the amalgamation of the Department of Community Relations with the Department of Education. I am glad that this has at last been realised. That is why I welcome the order wholeheartedly. Anything which contributes towards good community relations in Northern Ireland is to be welcomed. That is why I commended the work of the Department of Community Relations, though I had my differences with the old Community Relations Commission, which generated more heat than light.

I appreciate that one cannot legislate for people's opinions and prejudices. On the other hand, public representatives can help by giving a lead and a guide to the community and in that way try to get rid of the difficult problems that exist. Certainly prejudices exist in Northern Ireland. We would be fools to say that they did not. But we cannot at the stroke of a pen or the wave of a hand get rid of them. We must just work carefully and slowly for the betterment of the community in Northern Ireland.

The Department of Education is the best Department to deal with this work. Education in the broadest sense is the key to community policy in the Province. In school management, for instance, we have both communities working together in the education and library boards and on the management committees of the maintained voluntary schools. Again, representatives of both communities are involved in the development of school curricula, work on various education committees and on schemes on how to spend the extra year at school.

It is right that youth, sport and youth welfare should be the responsibility of the Department which is also responsible for schools and museums. It is right also that the oversight of arrangements to encourage the development of inter-community relationships should be part and parcel of the same Department. The Department of Education has excelled itself at good sensible community relations at school administrative level. It knows how to handle the difficult problems of denominational vested interest in that most touchy of subjects—education.

I do not share the fear that has been expressed that community relations will suffer as a result of the translation of community relations to the Department of Education. I believe that with a sensible. cautious approach, building slowly and carefully on each new success, it will be possible to re-establish in the hearts and minds of the Ulster people the valuable opportunity which was thrown away by the openly partisan nature of much of the work of the old Community Relations Commission.

I welcome the order, and I hope that it will herald a new era in the history of Northern Ireland.

12.29 a.m.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell (Down, South)

Like all those who have spoken in the debate, I believe that this is a thoroughly sensible and wise thing that is being done. It is not, unfortunately, the common experience that when an amalgamation takes place there is an increase in efficiency and in economy. But I share the opinion of my good friend and neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker), that this is likely to be an exception to that dismal rule. I also agree with him in believing that if as a result the amount of the estimate for the coming financial year for this function is reduced, that will probably be a mark that the function will be better performed than it would have been under the previous organisation.

I sought to intervene in the debate only in order to pinpoint one matter of anxiety. Amongst the functions set out in Article 4(3)(b) appear the words giving financial assistance towards the conduct of research into community relations. What a world of potential humbug lies in those few words "research into community relations". I trust that I shall have the sympathy of the Minister in expressing the hope that as little financial assistance as possible will be given to that activity. It is very easy to be over-conscious as well as under-conscious of community relations and community problems. I rather liked a remark which fell this afternoon at Question Time from the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office when he said that when we have stopped counting them we shall know that we have won. A great deal of research, much of which is bogus and not academic at all, into community relations only has the effect of discovering and highlighting that of which most of us, I believe, would have remained utterly and mercifully unconscious. To use a famous phrase of Thucydides, one might say of community relations" That is best of which least is heard".

I am not denying that within the Department of Education, and for the guidance particularly of the work of the district councils—and I concur with everything that has been said about the importance of their rôle in this field—there may well be investigations which can simply and properly be carried out by the Department itself. But I was alarmed when I heard the Minister speak about the intention to set up an institute for community relations research. One knows the sort of train of elaboration which follows under such a title. Therefore, I utter the plea that that function will be allowed more or less to atrophy. I think it will be best for community relations when it does.

Apart from that, I join in the welcome which has been given to this order.

12.32 a.m.

Mr. Moyle

With the permission of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wish to reply to the interesting points which have been raised in this short debate.

The general expression of welcome that has been extended to the order which will confine the Department of Community Relations with the Department of Education with great pleasure. It will increase their interest and enthusiasm in the work and in the new facilities.

I agree with the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker) that one cannot legislate to change men's minds. I agree also that education is a process which we must use in making progress in this field, so long as we do not regard education as something which is shoved into the schools and then forgotten about, which is a danger, and so long as it is realised that, although one cannot legislate to change men's minds, one can legislate to create a social climate which is helpful in reaching those objectives which we wish to attain. Even the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) agrees with that, although I feel that we on this side of the House have not always agreed with him in other matters.

Before the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) gets too euphoric about district councils, may I say that in taking the steps which I have taken I am conscious of the views which have been expressed about local government in Northern Ireland in the past. I stress "in the past" because the district councils have not been in existence for all that long, and, therefore, it is grossly unfair to criticise district councils at this stage for being unduly political in their approach to their constituents. Sometimes the accusation is made that they are basically sectarian in their approach to their constituents. There is no evidence at the moment, whatever may happen in the future, for saying that that is the situation. Therefore, I believe that district councils ought to be given the job which I am giving them, and I think they will rise to the challenge.

On the other hand, conscious of the past, I should stress that the powers that the district councils will be exercising will be not powers that they have in their own legal right but powers which will have been given as agents of the Department of Education. Moreover, they will be exercising those powers under conditions laid down in a policy statement issued by the Department of Education. Although I say "issued by the Department of Education", I should add that the policy statement will, of course, emanate from the working party to which reference has been made.

The hon. Member for Antrim, North asked when the working party would report. All I can say is "Soon". As for when the responsibilities will be assumed, this depends on the money coming forward under the review of Government expenditure. When decisions are taken on that, we can certainly move to give the responsibilities to the district councils, and the intention is to move as quickly as possible.

There is little need for legislation. I am not quite sure whether a recreation order has passed through the House, or is about to do so, which will allow district councils to vest land for recreational purposes. They have not had that power hitherto, and they will be given it to help them.

The problem to which the hon. Gentleman referred regarding the provision of money for help to communities in urban areas but not in rural areas is on the point of being rectified, if it has not been rectified already.

The hon. Member for Armagh made one or two points with which I could not entirely agree. If the choice were between spending the money that we have on some large recreational centers—I have seen the one in Antrim, which is magnificent and a great credit to the people who thought of it—and providing a hard all-weather football pitch in every council estate in Northern Ireland, I should go for the second rather than the first. The hon. Gentleman hoped that we might economise. I reckon that we can use all the money that the Department is given for the provision of this sort of recreational facility throughout Northern Ireland. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Antrim, North that there are great housing estates in the Province which have no such provision whatever. This has been the fault of housing policy in the past, and we must try to avoid it in the future. It is not a matter entirely for me, but I shall certainly do what I can to help.

The hon. Member for Armagh was interested in the problems of the staff of the Ministry and the commission. The staff of the Ministry are civil servants. They have all gone into the Department of Education almost as a division; there are about 100 of them and they are all with us. As regards the Community Relations Commission, in all cases, both field staff and administrative staff, in winding up the commission has sought to part with its staff on the basis of agreed settlements, and in almost every case suitable arrangements have been mutually agreed between the commission and the staff concerned. Regrettably, there are still three cases to be settled, and in one of those a writ for breach of contract has been issued and a statement of claim is awaited. So that situation is not as happy as I should have hoped.

The hon. Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Bradford) was worried that, as a result of the amalgamation of the two Departments, if ever there were a period of economic stringency the cuts would fall on the community relations work, not on the education work. This is to misconceive the way in which the government of Northern Ireland operates at the moment. Money is not provided for Departments. Money is provided for programmes, and the decision as to whether one programme is pushed and another is allowed to wither on the vine, so to speak, is reached by my right hon. Friend from a position of detachment, after listening to the arguments. I do not, therefore, think that the hon. Gentleman's fears in that respect are valid.

The hon. Gentleman was concerned also about accessibility to the decision makers. First, in these matters accessibility will be to the district council—before too long—so that they will be fairly close to the point of user. Second, if I may say so, I have made a point of seeing as many of the community leaders as possible. I can tell the hon. Member for Antrim, North that I am to meet East Belfast Community Association representatives next week to try to persuade them of the paths that they should tread in the future. I hope that we shall have a fruitful meeting. I have already met the association once and know its views.

This has been a generally agreeable evening. There has been general agreement on most of the points we have discussed. I cannot, however, join the right hon. Member for Down, South in his comments about research into community relations. It is the firm intention of the Government to set up a body to conduct such research. We think that a deal of useful work can come from it. I hope that in due course I shall be able to convert the right hon. Gentleman from his scepticism.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Surely work of that kind could be done through existing academic institutions.

Mr. Moyle

A great deal of this work will be done in that way. There is a need for training community workers not only in community relations but also in the personal social services. The community relations institute or centre or whatever, if it runs such courses, will make use of the institutes of higher learning in Northern Ireland.

The hon. Member for Belfast, South asked me about youth leaders. Unqualified people can be appointed to youth leadership. They can then undergo training and become youth leaders and obtain the higher scale. I pay tribute to those running some of the courses in the Ulster College.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved. That the Community Relations (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 1975, a draft of which was laid before this House on 13th February, be approved.