EMPLOYMENT AGENCIES (Hansard, 18 June 1975)

§ Mr. John Fraser
I beg to move Amendment No. 27, in page 12, line 24, after "authority", insert "or an education authority".

Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this we are taking Government Amendment No. 29.

§ Mr. Fraser
These are purely technical amendments designed to ensure that Clause 15 applies to education authorities in Scotland in the same way as it applies to education authorities in England and Wales.

§ Mr. Ronald Bell
I beg to move Amendment No. 28, in page 12, line 28, leave out subsection (3).
The purpose of the amendment is to leave out the following words: References in subsection (1) to the services of an employment agency include guidance on careers and any other services related to employment". The rest of Clause 15 relates to the general activities of employment agencies. If we accept the general principle of the Bill, which I do for the purpose of moving the amendment, it can be seen that there is no objection to those activities. However, when it comes to guidance on 1534 careers, it seems an improper use of the law to make it unlawful to suggest to a man or a boy that certain careers are particularly suitable or to give advice and guidance to a girl or woman that there are better openings in certain areas. Advice and guidance should be given in good faith by whoever gives it. In that capacity people are giving their opinion.
This is an outrageous interference with freedom of thought and the freedom of speech. If someone goes to someone else for advice and guidance it is only right that that person should be free to give whatever advice and guidance he thinks appropriate. It is not for Parliament to say that certain advice and guidance should be unlawful. Of course, the person to whom guidance is given may or may not take it. He is at liberty to give it such weight as he thinks appropriate. However, we are unfortunately passing legislation which says that men and women are exactly the same in all respects and that no one must pretend that they are not. To go further and say that it is unlawful to give advice or guidance on the basis that there is some difference between the sexes, or that a girl may have a more hopeful future in one area rather than another, is going far beyond the sort of prescription on which a statute should embark.
Guidance is quite different from anything else that is contained in the Bill—for example, refusing a job, refusing promotion, refusing training or treating differently. This provision prescribes the kind of advice that shall be given by an employment agency to anyone who goes to it. I hope that the Minister will not brush this matter aside in his usual way, telling us what the Government have in mind and so on. We all know too well what they have in mind. What we want to do is improve their mind. I know that this operation is hopeless, but there is no reason for us not to try.

§ Mr. John Fraser
Perhaps I shall surprise the hon. and learned Gentleman by saying that he is totally right in suggesting that the Government should not interfere with genuine career advice. However, I must tell him that he is totally wrong if he thinks that the Bill does what he says it does. In those circumstances I am sure that he will seek leave to withdraw the amendment.

§ Mr. Bell
It is all very well for the Minister to say that, but it greatly confirms a suspicion which I have entertained for a long time although I have been much too polite to mention it. It seems that the Minister does not understand the Bill for which he has responsibility. It is obvious that the clause does exactly what I have suggested. Clause 15 reads: It is unlawful for an employment agency to discriminate against a woman—". It seems that the Minister is suggesting that the words "discriminate against a woman" govern everything. When there is a reference in subsection (1) to the services of an agency, including guidance on careers, it is suggested that that does not matter if it is not discrimination against a woman. That will not do. That argument does not add up. That may have been what the Minister was told, but that is not the case. Clause 15(3) reads: references in subsection (1) to the services of an employment agency include guidance on careers …". If guidance is given that it is better for a girl to do "this" rather than "that", it is clear that the clause is saying that "that" is prohibited. It is no good the Minister saying that it is not so, because it is clear that that is the position. The Minister knows that is so. Therefore, I am sure he will accept the amendment.