Security (Hansard, 24 July 1975)

§ 3. Mr. Biggs-Davison
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he will make a statement on law and order in the Province.

§ 5. Mr. Beith
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a state—ment about the security situation.

§ 6. Mr. Mather
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the present security situation.

§ Mr. Merlyn Rees
I would refer the hon. Members to the statement I made to the House on 21st July and to the Reply I gave to a Private Notice Question from the hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave) on 10th July.—[Vol. 896, c. 37–39; Vol. 895, c. 742–47

§ Mr. Biggs-Davison
Is it not absurd to suggest that men reliably believed to have committed at least one terrorist murder will not willingly, or under intimidation, rejoin or be retrained for terrorist units? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we were not reassured when he told us on Monday that ex-detainees were being persuaded to leave the country, unless by "country" he meant the whole of the United Kingdom? Are we to expect ex-detainees to join active service units in British cities over which the threat of terrorism now hangs? Finally, have releases been suspended?

§ Mr. Rees
I have explained my policy concerning the release of detainees, who have been arrested not through the courts but mostly by my fiat and by my 752 investigation of each individual case. Under the law as it is, and under the Bill which I hope will shortly become law, it is for me to look at each individual case. I am not in business to keep people locked up for ever. I shall look at each individual case.
I say to the hon. Gentleman, however, that the same problem arises with those who are released from prison, and there are 1,400 so-called special category prisoners coming out every day of the week. I have had no question from anybody about whether people released from prison may return to violence. There is always a problem in this respect. I have had a very careful investigation made as a result of what the hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave) said to me on Monday, and the RUC will take all necessary steps to arrest anyone against whom there is sufficient evidence of a crime and to bring any such person before a court. There are those who are known and seen but against whom there is no evidence. There are also those who are known but unseen and on the run, and we wish we could find them.

§ Mr. Beith
While the House is grateful for the statement of the Minister on Monday—some of us accepted the principles on which it was based, particularly that those who are interned cannot be regarded as hostages or treated as such —may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to say whether over the period of the cease-fire, and perhaps even more since the recent event involving four soldiers, there has been any evidence of increased community co-operation and increased willingness throughout the community to assist the police in ensuring that the proper processes of law enable arrests to be made?

§ Mr. Rees
I can tell the hon. Gentleman that a large number of arrests that have been made, and charges made through the courts, have been as a result of evidence given to us. I hope the House will take note that the Government believe that it is much more important to be able to charge arrested persons in the courts and, if they are convicted, to imprison them than it is to detain people. The amount of evidence coming from minority areas is large, but sadly, in one Protestant area of Northern Ireland where there is a Robophone, there has been only one telephone call ever.

§ Mr. McNamara
Will my right hon. Friend accept the assurance of many Members on the Government side, and I think in the rest of the House also, that it is far more preferable to have people tried and convicted, or acquitted, than it is to intern them, with all the emotional overtones involved? Is he able to tell the House whether there is any evidence of the degree to which ex-detainees or ex-internees have been convicted of terrorist crimes and what percentage this represents of the sum total? In relation to these figures, is he able to assess the policies and fears of the opposition?

§ Mr. Rees
Concerning the last part of my hon. Friend's question, it is a very small number. I shall check on it. I seem to recall one such case from each side, as it were, in Northern Ireland, but I do not think that proves the point. We must be concerned about what may happen in certain conditions to people who were formerly detained or who were formerly in prison, having been properly sentenced. In terms of the question asked by my hon. Friend, however, it is a very small number.
Concerning the first part of the question, it is the aim of the Government to bring prosecutions through the courts. It is better to do it that way.
If there should be a full-scale return to violence on either side, the powers of the law at the moment, and under the new legislation which will come shortly, empowering detention, are there because they may have to be used.

§ Mr. Mather
Can the Minister really say, with his hand on his heart, that these people are not going back to terrorism? If he cannot say this, is it really worth the risk involved in releasing them?
Concerning the recent death of the four soldiers in Northern Ireland, will the right hon. Gentleman consult the BBC, which at 10 o'clock on the morning in question announced that four soldiers had been killed but made no mention of the next of kin being informed? Will he recognise that the failure to mention this caused a great deal of pain and anguish to those with sons in Armagh, who had no idea until 6 p.m. whether their own sons were involved?

§ Mr. Rees
I will look at that and see who is the appropriate person to investi- 754 gate. With regard to releases from detention—the current wave of detention, starting with internment in 1971, with well over 1,000 people—it is not the intention of the law either then or now to have life imprisonment by detention. I have to look at every individual case, and I shall continue to do that. I am not unaware of the problems. I am also aware of the number of people being released every day from gaol who have been properly sentenced. No one seems worried about them, although in many cases they have committed far worse crimes.

§ Mr. Powell
The Secretary of State appeared to say just now that there were 1,400 special category prisoners coming out every day.

§ Mr. Rees
No.

§ Mr. Powell
That was the right hon. Gentleman's expression. I thought that he would want an opportunity to correct that if it was a slip of the tongue.

§ Mr. Rees
There are 1,400 special category prisoners. There are special category prisoners coming out every day.

§ Mr. Fitt
I recognise the sincerity which my right hon. Friend is displaying in trying to bring violence in Northern Ireland to an end. Is he aware, however, that there is considerable disquiet in both communities about the fact that negotiations appear to be going on between the British Government and paramilitary groups from both sides of the religious and political divide whose only authority is that of the gun and intimidation? Will he at all times bear in mind that in the final analysis the people to set the pattern for any development of a future peace in Northern Ireland are the representatives of the people elected by the people?

§ Mr. Rees
The purpose of the Convention is for the people of Northern Ireland to elect representatives who are not governing Northern Ireland but who are talking together with a view to putting to this House a general attitude to a scheme of government, because it is those who are elected who will govern Northern Ireland. It is political action which matters. I say that not just to my hon. Friend and to his community, although I know that he attempts to cross the divide. The man with the gun in both 755 communities in Northern Ireland calls the tune. That would not be so if there was not support for men with guns in many parts of Northern Ireland.

§ Mrs. Kellett-Bowman
When terrorist outrages occur in Ireland or in England and persons are tried for these offences in counties other than those in which they were perpetrated, will the Secretary of State persuade his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that the cost of these trials should be defrayed from national funds and should not be borne by the ratepayers of counties such as my own?

§ Mr. Rees
That is not a matter for me. I have many problems in Northern Ireland, but I am glad that that is not one of them.

§ Mr. Stallard
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the continued use of troops as policemen, especially in stress areas in Northern Ireland, is neither good for security nor good for the troops concerned? In the near future, does he expect to be able to make some kind of progress report to the House about discussions which have been held or proposals which have been made about the introduction of acceptable police forces in those areas and the withdrawal of troops?

§ Mr. Rees
In the time that the Government have been in power—and going back to the section in last year's White Paper on law and order—it has been the view of the Government and of many people in Northern Ireland that what we should achieve is proper policing and that the quicker that the troops were withdrawn to perform their normal function, the better. Under normal circumstances the police do the job very much better. That is not in any way decrying the troops there, on whom I find every day that I depend greatly. But there are parts of Northern Ireland where the writ of the police does not run properly. In my 18 months there I have learned that there cannot be two police forces. There cannot be degrees of police forces. There can be only one police force throughout Northern Ireland. It is basic that that should be the case, because the law will be carried out only when the police are supported by everyone in the community. I endeavour to do my part to see that that comes about.