§ Lords Amendment: No. 8, after clause 17, in page 11, line 12, at end insert new Clause A—
§ Commencement orders
§ "A. The Secretary of State shall not make an order under section 19(5) hereof until draft regulations shall have been made under section 10 above and such draft regulations have been laid before, and approved by, resolutions of both Houses of Parliament."
§ Read a Second time.
§ Dr. Summerskill
I beg to move, as an amendment to the Lords amendment, leave out from '19(5)' to the end and insert'below appointing a day for the coming into operation of section 1 above until he has made regulations under section 10 above which provide for their coming into operation on that day.(2) Regulations so providing shall not be made unless a draft of them has been approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker
We also take with this amendment the motion to disagree with Lords Amendment No. 9, the 710 amendment in lieu of Lords Amendment No. 9, in page 11, line 15, after 'below', insert'or of regulations of which a draft has been approved by resolution of each House of Parliament',and the following amendments in the name of the right hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page).
As an amendment to Lords Amendment No. 8, after 'hereof', insert(other than in respect of sections 13 and 14 above and any provisions of the Schedules hereunder relevant to those sections and other than in respect of section 10 above and this section)',and as an amendment to Lords Amendment No. 9, leave out 'commencement of this Act' and insert'coming into operation of the regulations made under the provisions of the last preceding section'.
§ Dr. Summerskill
The Government amendments will have the effect of securing the substance of the Lords amendments to the Bill while removing what we consider to be undesirable side effects.
The intention of the other place was to require that the regulations should be subject to affirmative resolution by both Houses of Parliament. The Government did not think that the affirmative resolution procedure was essential in these circumstances, but we fully accept the desirability of there being ample discussion and consideration before the main regulations under the Bill are made. We therefore agree to the Bill being amended so that these regulations will require an affirmative resolution by each House.
Unfortunately, the amendments made in the other place were not only technically defective but prevented Clause 13 —which was the important clause designed to give immediate assistance to the voluntary organisations and football clubs at present operating lotteries under Section 45 of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963—from being brought into operation before the rest of the Bill.
The Government amendments, whilst securing the affirmative resolution procedure for the main regulations, will at the same time enable Clause 13, Clause 14 and the consolidation amendments to be brought into operation before the regulations have been made. But the Bill, with these Government amendments which I am moving, will prevent the 711 principal provisions of the Bill, which depend upon Clause 1, from being brought into operation until the first and main regulations have been approved in draft, and made.
§ Mr. Graham Page (Crosby)
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for the amendments which she has put on the White Paper. Those in my name are in no way in opposition to hers. I think they went down simultaneously before I had read her amendments.
We agree entirely with the Lords amendment that the regulations should be drafted and approved by this House before the remainder of the Bill is brought into operation, but it was a sort of chicken and egg position, and we found that if one accepted the Lords amendment in whole it would prevent the very beneficial Clauses 13 and 14 coming into operation right away, and those who run small lotteries want to be able to use these two clauses as soon as possible.
The regulations will not relate to these clauses as I understand it, at all. There are the football clubs which want to get moving, as the season starts, with the new figures included in Clauses 13 and 14. This was the intention of the amendment in my name. I think the hon. Lady's amendment goes further and covers what I have in my amendment to the Lords Amendment No. 8, so I welcome this very much.
Perhaps the hon. Lady will give us some information first on when she contemplates making a commencement order on the rest of the Bill, other than Clause I—I should have thought it could be very soon, in a month's time, after the Bill has received Royal Assent—and, following that, perhaps she can say when she hopes to have the draft regulations ready to come before the House. I am not asking her to anticipate, forecast and prophesy, but we should like to have a little information on those two dates.
§ Mr. Rees-Davies
I should like to reinforce the point just made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) and take it slightly further. Will not the Minister agree that she can give tonight a date upon which Clauses 13 and 14 will be brought into effect? The reason one wants to know it now—even if she says it will be in a month's time— 712 is that in the case of lotteries for societies preparations can be made. Presumably the Bill will receive the Royal Assent within a week, and I should have thought that it would be quite easy for her to say in regard to Clauses 13 and 14 that societies could work on the basis that they could begin on 1st September. That is the first matter.
On the second matter, concerning the regulations, I realise that this will take somewhat longer, but would not it be possible again for the hon. Lady to give a clear date, which we would know by the end of September, by which time the draft regulations could be made, so that they could be considered? In the consideration of the regulations I trust that she will bear in mind very carefully the absolute need to have the widest possible dissemination of tickets, and, therefore, the least possible professional doorstep canvassing. It is apparent time and again that people could easily become tired of the concept of lotteries unless these regulations are carefully and compellingly laid, one would hope, certainly within two months of today.
§ 10.45 p.m.
§ Dr. Summerskill
I appreciate that the Bill has some urgency, especially for the football clubs now that the Safety of Sports Grounds Bill is nearly through. But I am afraid that I cannot give a firm date for the commencement order. It will be made in a matter of weeks. That is as near as I can say. Certainly there will be no undue delay.
As for the regulations, it is very important to get them right, of course. Clause 10 (3) contains a number of different points which we all feel to be extremely important. They require consultations with the authorities concerned, and we want to ensure that the regulations are good ones. Therefore, I have to say that it may take some months for the regulations to be discussed properly. It is better to get the right regulations rather than hurry and get bad or inadequate ones.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Amendment made: After Clause 17, in page 11, line 12, at end insert new Clause A—
§ Commencement orders
§ "A. The Secretary of State shall not make an order under section 19(5) below appointing 713 a day for the coming into operation of section 1 above until he has made regulations under section 10 above which provide for their coming into operation on that day.
§ (2) Regulations so providing shall not be made unless a draft of them has been approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.' —[Dr. Summerski11.]