PENALTIES (Hansard, 11 July 1975)

§ Mr. Hardy
I beg to move, That this House doth agree with Lords in the said amendment.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
It will be convenient to take with this Lords Amendment No. 26, in page 5, line 10, at end insert "and which is".

§ Mr. Hardy
Your suggestion, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is a very acceptable one.
Lords Amendment No. 25 is a minor drafting amendment but it improves the Bill, and it has been the intention of those concerned with the Bill to ensure that it is in the most perfect condition when it leaves the Houses of Parliament. The work of their Lordships in bringing about this drafting amendment and other amendments of similar character seems to me to be most commendable.
Amendment No. 26 makes it very clear that the phrase found in the possession of that person relates to anything capable of being used for the taking or killing of protected wild creatures as listed in Schedule 1 to the Bill and not to the creatures themselves. The words relate to the action of a person who may be committing an offence, and not to the creatures.
This amendment is rather more important than Lords Amendment No. 25, because this is related to an important provision in the Bill which empowers the courts to order the forfeiture of any wild creature referred to earlier in Clause 11(2). That power and, consequently, the two amendments we are now considering are very important. Hon. Members will appreciate that they are valuable and deserve to be included within the Bill.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Before I put the Question on the amendment, may I tell the House that using this old English doth upset me and therefore, with the permission of the House, I shall say "The Question is. That this House agrees with the Lords in the said Amendment."

§ Mr. Mather
rose—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Did the hon. Member wish to object?

§ Mr. Mather
I believe that it is a time-honoured custom to use these words, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I hope you will not object if on occasion I stray into the old English and find myself using it as an alternative.

§ Mr. Hardy
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was addressing you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, but I should like to refer to this point because the suggestion you have made is very interesting. While it causes our tongues to be twisted on occasion, I find myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Esher (Mr. Mather) in that—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I need not trouble the hon. Gentleman any more. I find that I doth agree as well.

§ Mr. Denis Howell
I rise only to say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I think all hon. Members doth protest too much. I was tending to agree with your modernistic approach to these matters which is perfectly in keeping with the need to change with the times. I hope you are not intimidated or pressurised in seeking to bring about these necessary changes. I doth agree with you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that we should proceed in this way.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
I had better not try this change when there are only a few hon. Members in the House. I shall consider this later, as I am quite sure—I do not know how to put it in old English—that Mr. Speaker will as well.