HC Deb 08 July 1975 vol 895 cc332-6
Q5. Mr. Teddy Taylor

asked the Prime Minister if he will appoint an additional Minister to the Department of Employment.

Mr. Edward Short

I have been asked to reply.

I refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost) on 26th June.

Mr. Taylor

Obviously the Secretary of State for Employment will need some help if he is to take personal authority for the administration of a statutory incomes policy. Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that the Department of Employment is fully geared to deal with the massive unemployment which lies ahead because of the Government's failure to act promptly?

Mr. Short

On the first point, I do not know what is wrong with the Scottish Members on the other side of the House, but I said earlier that we hope to have a voluntary agreement on incomes. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman is premature in talking about operating a statutory policy. As to his second point, I agree that unemployment is far too high, but it has risen much less steeply in this country than in any competitor country.

With regard to Scotland, the hon. Member will be delighted to know that the differential between Scottish unemployment and employment in the rest of the United Kingdom has been narrowed.

Mr. Crawford

We are not happy.

Mr. Short

The hon. Member says he is not happy about that. I am extremely happy about it. The unemployment figure is far too high, but the differential between regions like Scotland and North. East England has been considerably reduced over the past year.

Mr. Molloy

Is my right hon. Friend aware, and does he not agree, that the principle of consultation in industrial relations is to be preferred to the foolhardiness of confrontation? Will he not further agree that the statements made yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and by Mr. Joe Gormley, the miners' leader, and the great debate that the miners are having must show that "jaw jaw" in industrial relations today is better than "war war"? Is not that the sort of way in which we ought to proceed rather than end up in an industrial war which would damage not only any particular industry but also the entire nation, as happened under the last Tory administration?

Mr. Short

Of course, and my hon. Friend is absolutely correct. There is no way out of our problems in this country except by consent and consensus, and I too would pay tribute to the leadership being shown by so many trade union and CBI leaders at the present time. I refuse to believe that in this great country the two sides of industry and the Government cannot come together to work out a voluntary agreement to get us out of our present difficulties and to reduce our inflation to the level of that of our major competitors.

Mr. Prior

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answer to my hon. Friend was complacent in the extreme and that it is not good enough for the Government to say that our present unemployment levels are lower than those of other countries, when all of us can clearly see that our unemployment figures are going up and those of other countries are going down? In particular, what is he going to do to bring extra help to the thousands of school leavers who will be out of a job this summer and who will be bitterly resenting that they or their parents ever had anything to do with a Labour Government?

Mr. Short

My reply to a member of the Front Bench who was a member of a Government who allowed unemployment to rise to 2 million during the three-day working week, and to 1 million before that, is that I am not at all complacent. I said in reply to a question that unemployment is far too high—tragically high—but that the increase has been lower than the increase in most Western industrialised countries. I also said, and I take some pride in the fact, that the differential between the unemployment figure in industrial Scotland and in the North-East of England and some of the other older industrial regions in the United Kingdom has been reduced. I should have thought the right hon. Gentleman would want to pay tribute to that.

Mr. Cyril Smith

Has the Lord President of the Council read a report in the Daily Express this week about a large number of people allegedly drawing money to which they were not entitled and then transferring the money to IRA funds? Has he any evidence as to the truthfulness of that report? If there is any truth in it, might it not be a good idea to appoint an additional Minister to the Department of Employment, as suggested in the Question, in order to prevent this practice?

Mr. Short

I understand that the Department of Health and Social Security has stated that there is no evidence for this at all but that it is inquiring into the facts alleged in the Daily Express. That is all I can say about it at the moment.

Mr. Leslie Huckfield

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement last Tuesday was infinitely preferable to the massive cuts in public expenditure which have been called for quite prominently by the Opposition? If the country really wants to see a voluntary policy accepted by large sections of the trade union movement, does my right hon. Friend accept that the Government have to show much more determination on prices and investment, which are equally part of the economic crisis affecting the country?

Mr. Short

Yes, Sir, I agree. Certainly the call for massive public expenditure cuts by the Conservative Party is a call for unemployment to solve our inflationary problems. This Government reject unemployment as a weapon to solve inflationary problems, and undoubtedly we shall not use unemployment to solve our inflationary difficulties.

Mr. Evelyn King

Does the Lord President of the Council agree that a primary function of the trade union movement is to increase wages, and is he not living in cloud-cuckoo-land if he suggests that over any prolonged period the trade union movement will co-operate in reducing wages? Have not we reached the point at which consultation with the trade unions, the CBI or anybody else is now seen as an effort by the Government simply to shovel responsibility on to somebody else, and is it not time that the Government faced their own responsibilities and showed more political courage than they have so far shown?

Mr. Short

The Government will certainly show political courage, as they have always shown and as Labour Governments always do, but the hon. Gentleman is living in a world which no longer exists. Today we can function only by consent, and it is that consent that we shall be trying to achieve over the next few days.

Mr. Henderson

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland once said that he would resign if Scottish unemployment went over 100,000? Will he confirm to the House that he has received that resignation?

Mr. Short

The receiving of resignations is a matter for the Prime Minister.

Mr. Cryer

Will my right hon. Friend accept that a voluntary arrangement is in line with the promises that the Labour Party made in February and October 1974? Will he also accept that there is far too much emphasis on wages as a primary cause of inflation and that the recent devaluation of sterling was a very large cause of the increase in costs that working people have had to bear? Will he urge upon his colleagues in the Cabinet that action is needed to control speculators, as we on the Government benches are a bit tired of Labour Governments being at the mercy of international speculators and unable to carry out the policy on which they are elected?

Mr. Short

But the recent Price Commission report stated that 50 to 60 per cent. of recent price increases was due to labour costs. We cannot get over that fact, and this has to be borne in mind.

Mr. Baker

If local authorities do not follow the guidelines laid down by the Government in their pay policy, will the Lord President tell us, from his considerable experience of local government, whether the sanctions will bear upon councillors?

Mr. Short

That is a matter at which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment would be looking.

Mrs. Thatcher

If what the Lord President said in one of his early replies today about public expenditure is right, does he agree that what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said last Tuesday about using cash limits to control public expenditure in the short term is wrong? Which is correct?

Mr. Short

The right hon. Lady, as I understand it, wants to make massive cuts in public expenditure. Perhaps in one of her weekend speeches at some country house or other she will tell us which public expenditure cuts she would propose to make and what would be the employment consequences of the cuts she has in mind.