HC Deb 14 January 1975 vol 884 cc163-6
1. Mr. Biggs-Davison

asked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will make a statement about the progress of military operations in Northern Ireland.

The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Roy Mason)

There was considerable progress during 1974 permitting the withdrawal without relief of three major units to match the gradual reduction in violence achieved by the operations of the security forces.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Will the right hon. Gentleman convey to our troops our admiration of their courage and devotion which has brought about the present cessation of firing? At the same time, does he agree that any kind of relaxation of vigilance at this time, while human, would be dangerous and might frustrate the outcome we all desire?

Mr. Mason

I am obliged to the hon. Member and I am sure that Her Majesty's Forces in Northern Ireland will appreciate what he has said. They have been very skilful and at the same time very diplomatic and they have done a remarkable job. In the past 12 months they have arrested 1,367 terrorists and recovered 1,260 weapons, 150,000 rounds of ammunition and 24 tons of explosives. During the course of the ceasefire they have maintained patrols, but not as many, they have managed to carry on with the security on the border and they have managed to keep up a regular search of vehicles and, if necessary, houses and persons.

Rev. Ian Paisley

On behalf of my colleagues, I should like to identify myself with the remarks by the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Biggs-Davison) concerning the courage and determination of Her Majesty's Forces in Northern Ireland. Is the Secretary of State in a position to tell the House what general orders are now prevailing among troops during the cease-fire in Northern Ireland? Will he say what troops, if any, have left Northern Ireland since the cease-fire?

Mr. Mason

I am obliged to the hon. Member for what he said. No troops have been withdrawn during the ceasefire. They have adopted a rôle of vigilance but on a low profile. The hon. Member and the House will have to await what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has to say at the conclusion of Question Time concerning the next steps in the cease-fire.

Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles

Will the right hon. Gentleman make quite clear that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland understands what must be passing through the minds of our troops over there when they see walking about the streets and released from detention men who in their opinion might have been responsible for killing some of their colleagues? Admittedly the Secretary of State has difficult decisions, but he should understand that.

Mr. Mason

I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman and every other hon. Member that I am perfectly well aware of that, as is my right hon. Friend. We are always aware that when there is a release of detainees, even though they may have been scrupulously screened, there is the possibility that they might go back to carrying out some of the activities for which they were arrested. We are aware of that and we have to watch it carefully.

18. Mr. Lawson

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what is his best estimate of the number of British soldiers killed by terrorists and the number of terrorists killed by British soldiers in action in Northern Ireland during 1974.

The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. Robert C. Brown)

Thirty-five Service personnel were killed by terrorist activity and 10 persons were killed by the security forces in circumstances which suggest that they were engaged in terrorist activities.

Mr. Lawson

May I ask the Minister to answer the Question, which was about the number not only of terrorists killed by British forces over the last year but of British Service men killed by terrorists? Will he confirm that the number of British Service personnel killed by terrorists is considerably in excess of the number of terrorists killed by British forces? Does not this suggest that possibly the rules restricting the behaviour of our forces in Northern Ireland are unduly restrictive at the present time?

Mr. Brown

I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman should ask me for that answer. If he had been listening to my reply, he would have heard me say that 35 members of the armed forces were killed by terrorists last year.

On the second point raised by the hon. Gentleman, it is extremely difficult to judge what is at the back of his mind. Is he trying to make a valid comparison? If he is, I point out to him that he cannot do so, because the terrorists aim to kill or at any rate to maim, whereas the security forces use force only in response to attack. They do so with the greatest restraint and in keeping with the law of the land.

Last year 1,367 persons were arrested and charged. As at 31st December, more than 1,500 persons were serving prison sentences as a result of apprehension by the armed forces. If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that we should relax respect for the law by the British forces in Northern Ireland so that the 1,500 people at present in prison should be dead instead, he will not get much support either in this House or in the country.

Mr. Noble

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the kind of comment just made by the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) is unfortunate at this time when the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is trying to extend the truce?

Mr. Brown

I thought I had made that abundantly clear.

Mr. McCusker

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the Army is at present unable to reply to attacks by mortars and so on if the enemy is operating from concealed or hidden positions? Is there any possibility of relaxation of this practice so that the Army can reply in kind to terrorists?

Mr. Brown

I do not think that what the hon. Gentleman has said is strictly true. If mortars are being used and the position from which they are being fired can be located, return fire is made. If the hon. Gentleman is thinking of incidents across the border, that is another issue.

Mr. Buck

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman's Department for having arranged a visit to Northern Ireland, from which I have just returned. Is he aware that a broadsheet called "Visor" is being produced in Northern Ireland which sets out succinctly the way in which our Services have been magnificently successful in cutting down the rate of killings, and so forth, of the troops? Will he arrange for this admirable publication to be placed in the Library for the benefit of Members?

Mr. Brown

I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for his comments. I am glad that he had a good trip to Northern Ireland and I am particularly pleased that he has mentioned "Visor", which is much appreciated by the troops. I shall see that copies are placed in the Library of the House.

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