HC Deb 28 February 1975 vol 887 cc989-99
Sir Geoffrey Howe (Surrey, East)

I have already drawn to the attention of the House the disgraceful state of affairs that is arising in connection with the printing of amendments for the Finance Bill. When I raised the matter an hour ago you reminded me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, of the undertaking given yesterday by the Leader of the House when he said: I have given an undertaking two or three times today that al] the material will be made available in time … I have given that undertaking … we shall make the material available."—[Official Report, 27th February 1975; Vol. 887, c. 717.] In the light of that repeated statement I raised the point of order today. The position is that no printed copies are available of the amendments tabled on the Finance Bill up to today. The amendments number more than 700 in all so far, and there are available only a very limited number of photocopies, unmarshalled, and insufficient for the number of hon. Members who wish to receive them. An hour ago I was told that only 30 were available and no others have since come to hand.

I asked that the Leader of the House should be here to deal with the matter at this time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"] I understand that he is seeking to advance or retard the cause of the Labour Party in Scotland. We are happy to see in his place the Deputy Chief Whip, for whom we have great admiration. He has a thankless task and I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House wish him more or less well. But he is no substitute for the forthcoming, radiant figure of the Leader of the House. We should have been delighted to see him at this time but unhappily he is not here. I therefore ask the hon. Member, through you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what the Government propose to do about this serious matter.

Apart from the amendments which have already been tabled, I understand that the Government will be tabling today still further amendments, which should be in the hands of hon. Members tomorrow, so that they may consider them and consult their constiuents during the weekend. If that is not possible, it raises a serious question how, if at all, we shall be able to proceed with this business on Monday. We shall have to give serious consideration to the question whether we start on that day.

In the meantime, what if anything, do the Government propose to do to ensure that hon. Members are supplied with copies of these amendments, to which they are entitled?

Mr. Walter Harrison (The Treasurer of Her Majesty's Household)

First I convey to the House my sincere apologies on behalf of the Leader of the House, who said that he was involved in important business—not quite what the right hon. Gentleman said—for the furtherance of this nation, and not just that of the Labour Party alone.

I hope that I can adequately substitute for the Leader of the House in respect of this point. Yesterday he made a statement in good faith that copies would be available in the Vote Office, and he left London late last night in the firm belief that that promise would be complied with. As a result of certain difficulties which have arisen since then, I investigated the right hon. Gentleman's complaint at three o'clock this afternoon and set into motion certain processes which I hope will satisfy the Opposition. The Vote Office has been instructed that any hon. Member giving his name to the Vote Office, and requesting a copy of the amendments to date, should be supplied with copies this weekend by express post.

Mr. Keith Stainton (Sudbury and Woodbridge)

By personal delivery.

Mr. Harrison

By personal delivery, most likely.

Immediately the complaint was brought to my attention, I attempted in the very short time available to provide right hon. and hon. Members with the best facilities under the circumstances.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern)

Order. I am not prepared to allow general discussion as the matter does not affect the Chair. However, if the right hon. and learned Member wishes to make a point of explanation, he may do so.

Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South-West)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I submit with the greatest respect that it is possible to raise a point of order on what the hon. Member said. He made a statement which showed a proper consideration for the House in its difficulties and nobody is casting aspersions either on him, or on you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or on the integrity of the Lord President of the Council. However, I submit that this is a matter for the concern of the Chair.

One of the most comprehensive pieces of legislation ever to be produced before the House is due to commence its Report stage on Monday. Hon. Members who have returned to their constituencies have asked me to make this point. They have returned to their constituencies to address meetings of national farmers' unions, and so on, tonight, without the amendments which they need for sensible and meaningful discussions. We cannot, without bringing Parliament and its procedure into the utmost disrepute, hold a debate on Monday, when hon. Members will return, having been unable to discuss these matters with their constituents. They have not had time, since only 30 copies of the amendments were copied by xerox before the machine broke down.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The hon. Member raised a point of order with the Chair. It is not a matter which concerns the Chair. The control of the Stationery Office is a matter for the Government and not for the occupant of the Chair.

Therefore I shall ask the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) to put any point of explanation and then I shall take the Adjournment.

Mr. David Mitchell (Basingstoke)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is one matter for the Chair, I think. We look to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as the protector of back-bench Members and to ensure that they are able to do their jobs properly. The Government Deputy Chief Whip indicated that he was doing his best to assist in his most helpful way and suggested that he would have sent to Members by special post at the weekend the papers which they should have had but did not have this morning.

I think that the hon. Gentleman will confirm that the taking of the names of Members who require the information was not started at the Table Office until 3.25 this afternoon. That means that the Table Office does not know which Members require the information to be sent to them by special messenger. It is not possible, therefore, for the hon. Gentleman to carry out his undertaking to ensure that all Members who require the information will have it in time.

The current Finance Bill is one of the most important Bills introduced in the House, certainly while I have been a Member—

Mr. Cormack

This century.

Mr. Mitchell

—and it will destroy a large number of small businesses—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman has raised a point of order, but he is now going into the merits of the Bill.

Mr. Mitchell

May I go no further than to say that the Bill will enormously affect the private lives of countless citizens.

Mr. Cormack

Millions.

Mr. Mitchell

The fortunes of many people will be wiped out by the Bill. Yet we shall be unable to have the Government amendments in order to examine them with advisers, if necessary, at the weekend.

I suggest, with great respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that this is a matter for the Chair. It is of considerable importance to the Chair as well as to back benchers that back-bench Members should be able to do their jobs properly. Otherwise, Parliament is brought into disrepute. I know that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would not wish that to happen, but that will be the situation if, by Monday, we have been unable to examine the Government's amendments and perhaps table amendments to them after consulting solicitors, accountants and others involved. It will be totally impossible for us to start the business on Monday, and the Government should give an assurance today that Monday's business will be postponed until later in the week. That is the only way in which back-bench Members can be protected.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

If I had the names of hon. Members who wished to have copies, I might be of some help to the House. But I do not have the names. The hon. Gentleman has given no indication how the Chair can help him. What the Government can do is not for the Chair. That is a matter for discussion between the usual channels, and it can be raised, in my opinion, when the Bill is dealt with on Monday. I cannot see how I can be of assistance today in remedying a situation which hon. Members allege is inimical to the best interests of the business of the House.

Mr. David Howell (Guildford)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is one matter on which the Chair can be of assistance to the House. We are placed in an impossible position. Amendments have been put on a Notice Paper which has not been seen—copies are available, but I have not been able to obtain one—to which my colleagues and I will have to speak on Monday. This is an absurd situation. Clearly there is no time to prepare for consultation on these matters.

However, the situation is worse than that—and this is what particularly involves the Chair. The Officials of the House and the House as a whole are being faced with an absolutely intolerable timetable. The work burden in attempting to process the amendments, let alone to get them in order on the Notice Paper—and the Notice Paper which exists does not have even half of them marshalled in proper order—presents a task which is almost impossible of fulfilment. The chances of proper preparation and the achievement of the normal, orderly procedures consonant with the proper dignity of the House so that we can proceed properly with the business on Monday are nil.

It is therefore right that hon. Members should be able to put to the Chair the plea that the business and the order in which it is dealt with on Monday should be considered again, so that the impossible schedule being placed on hon. Members, Officers and staff of the House and the whole institution of the House of Commons may be reviewed with a view to postponing the business until it can be properly brought forward and handled.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

I hope that hon. Members have not mistaken me for the Leader of the House. We have had an apology from the Leader of the House. It is not the duty of the Chair to arrange the business, as is well known to right hon. and hon. Members. In my opinion, this matter can be raised on Monday when the business starts. I have given this matter some thought since the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) raised it. There is nothing that I can do to help hon. Members today.

Sir G. Howe

Further to that point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker. I recognise the limitations of the almost limitless powers of the Chair and that you cannot rule on what happens in this matter. However, you may be able to convey to the Government, in the same way as Mr. Speaker did yesterday, some suggestions as to how they can improve the situation. Frankly, if we have to wait until Monday, it will be too late for us to do anything other than to move the adjournment of the business.

My suggestion, apart from what has already been offered, is that the Government should undertake to send the somewhat tattered ragbag of disordered amendments, such as it is, during the course of tonight by special delivery, as promised, not only to hon. Members who have requested that document but to all hon. Members who served on the Finance Bill Standing Committee and to any hon. Members whose names appear as supporting any of the amendments on this document.

Mr. Keith Stainton (Sudbury and Woodbury)

All hon. Members. They are all equal.

Sir G. Howe

Indeed. It is only because of my compassion for the Government Deputy Chief Whip that I suggest this modest compromise of sending copies of the document to every Member of the Finance Bill Committee, every hon. Member whose name is attached to any amendments on this paper and any hon. Members whose names appear on the two early day motions on the Order Paper. I think that would be sufficient, if I may make that kind of discrimination. I know that I have no authority to suggest that course, but that is the least that should be done to make it remotely possible for us to consider what we do about the Bill, let alone start work on it on Monday.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has shown some compassion for the Deputy Chief Whip. I wish that he would extend that compassion to the occupant of the Chair. To suggest that I should convey the request to the Government seems superfluous. The Government are represented and are hearing every word being uttered. Indeed, they will be able to read what has been said. Therefore, I will ask the Deputy Chief Whip to respond to the request.

Mr. Walter Harrison

First, I recognise the compassion that has been expressed. I thought that I should finish the week very badly, but I appreciate and thank hon. Members for the compassion that they have shown to me.

Before I made the previous statement I had instituted proceedings to ensure that every hon. Member who served on the Committee would be supplied with a copy of the amendments. I am afraid that I omitted to mention that in my previous statement. That procedure has already been set in motion.

I shall, to the best of my ability, comply with every request that has been made. I certainly cannot comply with one hon. Member's request that copies be sent to every hon. Member of this House. I think that it would be foolish to accept that kind of responsibility. However, I shall try to ensure that hon. Members who have given their names to the Vote Office, hon. Members of the Finance Bill and hon. Members who have attached their names to amendments, receive copies of the amendments.

Mr. David Crouch (Canterbury)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. Can we not, in the light of what has been said by the Deputy Chief Whip, accept the position? It is the best that can be done in the circumstances.

Mr. Crouch

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is a point of order for you, as the Chair. I am not criticising what has been done by the Deputy Chief Whip. We appreciate that he has gone out of his way to try to help Parliament to approach its business in a compromised manner. But, in all seriousness, I regard this whole business as a joke when considering how I should approach the matter on Monday. I cannot cope with this type of work. First, no one will get an express delivery where I live—about 10 miles from the nearest railway station. I cannot get things sent from this House this afternoon by ordinary post delivered to my house. Therefore, I must ask you, as the Chair, as the centre point of our Parliament, to protect me and other hon. Members in similar situations who intend to speak on amendments that are being published. I have not yet seen a great many of those amendments, so I shall not be in a position to speak to them on Monday.

I am not in a position to perform my duty as a Member of Parliament. This is a point for the Chair. It is not only for the Chair, it is for Parliament and you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, sit at the centre. You are the main institution of our Parliament. I must put it to you that I cannot perform my duty as a Member of Parliament to the country and to my constituents in these circumstances. If I have to debate the Report stage of the Finance Bill on Monday I shall be unable to do so effectively. I must proclaim that this weekend for everyone to hear.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. Let me deal with that point of order. The hon. Member has been in this House long enough to know that the Chair does not arrange the business of the House. Let us get that point clear. If we do we may see that some of the points of order are rather pointless, certainly for the Chair. The matter has been raised and the Deputy Chief Whip, on behalf of the Government, has made certain promises. I am satisfied from the Chair that these promises will be carried out and that they will enable hon. Members to perform the necessary part of their work here.

Mr. Nicholas Ridley (Cirencester and Tewkesbury)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I apologise to you and to the House for missing the first part of this exchange. I came into the House at four o'clock to pick up the amendments to the Finance Bill so that I could work on them over the weekend, having been told that I could obtain them then. I understand what has happened from the interchange that has taken place and in every respect exonerate you and the Deputy Chief Whip from any guilt in the matter.

My point is that I wish to spend the weekend working on the Government amendments and amending them. As a member of the Finance Bill Committee I played a considerable role in the work on the Bill and may wish to make some changes to the amendments that the Government have offered to table. I cannot table amendments to the Government amendments if I do not have the Government amendments. This puts me in a difficult position. It seems wrong that a Bill should be put forward for debate on Monday when hon. Members will not have had an opportunity to table amendments to it. Will you accept on Monday at four o'clock a motion to adjourn the House—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. This is geting a bit beyond the bounds of decency, one might say. The hon. Gentleman knows quite well that I shall probably not be in the Chair—as a matter of fact I can tell him I shall not be in the Chair—at four o'clock on Monday. Let us get on with business. Mr. Stainton, on a point of order.

Mr. Stainton

rose—

Mr. Ridley

rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) is beating the air. There is no purpose in his pursuing the matter.

Mr. Ridley

On a point of order—

Mr. Stainton

You called me, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The hon. Member has not finished his point of order.

Mr. Ridley

You have just said that we are getting beyond the bounds of decency, Mr. Deputy Speaker. What about hon. Members who may wish to table amendments to the Government amendments and wish to have a further chance of studying these Government amendments? How can amendments to Government amendments possibly be on the Order Paper on Monday, let alone be unstarred? As a point of decency it is absolutely impossible to proceed—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The Deputy Chief Whip has already said that if the hon. Gentleman wishes to have a copy of the amendments he should put his name down and he will get a copy over the weekend.

Mr. Stainton

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. While I accept, with the utmost good will, that the Chair has certainly no responsibility for arranging the business of the House, much less for the intelligence or competence with which we conduct it, may I put this point? Is the Chair indifferent to the arrangements whereby we might at least try to approach our affairs intelligently? It is a naïve question to put but I would like a straightforward answer.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

I shall try to give a straightforward answer. Of course the Chair is not indifferent to the rights of hon. Members. The duty of the Chair always is to protect those rights. But a point of order has been raised which the Deputy Chief Whip, in the absence of the Leader of the House and speaking, presumably, on his behalf, has answered, giving certain assurances which I believe protect the rights of hon. Members. To that extent, I am satisfied.

Mr. Stainton

Pursuant to that point of order. My understanding is that these troubles arise because of an industrial dispute. The Deputy Chief Whip has not touched on that. There may be some-contravention of negotiations or union rules in the discharge of his undertakings.

Mr. Walter Harrison

I am well aware of the industrial dispute. The arrangements that I made were alternatives to try to counteract the problem which was arising. The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch) said that he lived 10 miles from the nearest station and would have difficulties. I shall try this afternoon to obtain one copy, if I can, from one of my hon. Friends, who I am certain will try to accommodate the hon. Gentleman. If we are permitted to get on to the Adjournment, during that 30 minutes I shall do my best to procure a copy.

    c999
  1. ADJOURNMENT 12 words
Forward to