HC Deb 05 August 1975 vol 897 cc369-70
Mr. Madel

I beg to move Amendment No. 177, in page 72, line 27, leave out 'consult' and insert 'notify'.

The Minister will recall that we moved this amendment in Committee, at our twenty-sixth sitting, and in reply the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Walker), the Under-Secretary of State, indicated that the Government accepted the spirit of the general approach which we then proposed and suggested that they ought to take it on board and respond to it. The hon. Gentleman said that he hoped that we would regard that as "an adequate response" and would on that basis withdraw the amendment, which we did.

The matter was covered in a brief debate—reported in cols. 1396–9 of the Official Report—and in order to probe the Government's thinking a little further we have put down this amendment for Report. I shall be grateful if the Minister will now give us a little more information.

Mr. John Fraser

The effect of the amendment would be to require only notification rather than consultation in the case of small redundancies, since by later provisions the consultation process would be built into redundancy situations affecting more than 10 people. We have given this matter consideration but have come to the conclusion that it is right even in the case of small redundancies—I say "even", but one hardly means that—that an opportunity for consultation would be appropriate, and we do not consider that it would be right to leave to the employer the decision on whether there should be consultation. In our view, trade unions can be trusted in such cases not to waste time in lengthy discussions where these are unnecessary.

In conclusion, perhaps I should add that, from my own experience, I do not believe that all small employers are the most avuncular and most generous people with whom to deal.

We have given the matter consideration, and we think it right to follow the general principle that consultation should take place. We hope that that will not result in waste of time, and we do not, for the reasons I have given, wish to accept an amendment to the Bill in this respect.

Mr. Madel

As I said, there was not a firm commitment by the Government.

It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.