HC Deb 05 August 1975 vol 897 cc429-32
Mr. John Evans

I beg to move Amendment No. 217, in page 148, line 7, at end insert— '21. In Clause 10, subsection 7, add at end "and the Secretary of State shall be answerable in Parliament for the Commission and the Executive"'. My hon. Friends and I put down this amendment because of the words used by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State in the debate in Standing Committee, when he said: I know that my hon. Friend is not asking me to enter into any firm commitment, but I will look very carefully at what he has said so that on Report we may be able to add something which will provide the further reassurance that he seeks. I hope that on that basis he will feel inclined to withdraw the amendment."—[Official Report, Standing Committee F, 22nd July, 1975; col. 1604.] Unfortunately, there is nothing which would meet the points we raised in the Standing Committee.

This is a quite clear and straightforward amendment. We are seeking to ensure that Ministers answer in Parliament Questions tabled by Members of Parliament about the work of the commission.

I think that many Members of Parliament are very concerned about the number of extra-governmental agencies which successive Governments have brought into being in the past few years. The end pro- duct is that invariably Members of Parliament find that the ycannot ask Questions about the subject. As the executive's powers increase, the powers of Parliament diminish. Millions of workers are affected by the work of the commission.

I have referred on other occasions to the re-organisation of the Factory Inspectorate. Many of us in the trade union movement have been very concerned in the past that the Factory Inspectorate was badly understaffed and could not do the job Parliament had charged it to do. We doubt whether the re-organised Factory Inspectorate can do the job as laid down, but we cannot ask Questions in Parliament about this.

To give an example from my own constituency, it is proposed that the Factory Inspectorate office in Warrington—the only growth area in the North-West—should be moved to Newcastle-under-Lyme, a distance of some 42 miles. This would be to the detriment of the workers in my constituency. Something like 1,000 workers are killed through factory accidents at work every year. Something like 500,000 are injured. Something like 23 million working days are lost because of accidents and injuries. This is an important area. It is estimated that the cost of accidents is in excess of £1,000 million, without counting the cost of industrial ill health caused by bad working conditions. Will the Minister accept the spirit of this amendment and enable Ministers to answer Parliamentary Questions? Members of Parliament should be allowed to table Questions about this matter, which is vitally important to millions of people.

Mr. Harold Walker

My hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Evans) reminded us that this matter was debated in Committee. There is undeniably a problem here. The Health and Safety Commission, with its heavy responsibilities, must clearly have considerable autonomy. There is no escaping that. It must have a clearly recognisable and separate identity. There must be a link with Government and Parliament, and control and accountability.

I considered this matter after the debate in Committee. I am satisfied that the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act provides for the final sensitive balance which I think is necessary. I think that the present arrangement is right and that it would be wrong to make a change.

I take to heart my hon. Friend's criticisms. He thought that we had information which in other circumstances might have been made available in replies to Questions and otherwise. We must look carefully at the question of giving maximum information and the most positive response to Questions. There will be areas of difficulty in future. I shall do whatever I can to ensure that whenever possible we give the fullest information in reply to Parliamentary Questions and in debate.

Apart from the debate on this measure, unprecedented interest has been shown in the House in these matters during the past few months. This year we answered a record number of Questions on industrial health and safety matters. I welcome that interest. We want to see it maintained by playing our part in giving the right response to Questions.

Mr. J. W. Rooker (Birmingham, Perry Barr)

The Minister has done more than most to encourage Members of Parliament to push health and safety aspects. He said that he would do what he could to enable Questions to be answered. I ask him to help us in getting Questions tabled. There is no point in him offering to answer the Questions if we cannot get them passed through the Table Office. I tried to submit a Question about statements made by the Chairman of the Health and Safety Commission on aspects of the Flixborough disaster. I was told that those Questions must be redrafted and that, as an official of the Department, the Minister could not answer them. He is not an official of the Department. We are grateful for the offer to answer Questions on aspects of the Health and Safety Commission.

Hon. Members experience considerable problems when endeavouring to put down Questions probing the murky areas of health and safety legislation affecting our constituents. The Minister wants to be positive. I know that he is positive. I think that ministerial contact with the Table Office would be appropriate.

1.0 a.m.

Mr. Harold Walker

There is an obligation on me to respond to that intervention and, with the leave of the House, I will do so. When in recent years the Government have hived off their responsibilities to extra-governmental agencies, often advice has been given to the Table Office that because the Minister is no longer responsible his Department cannot answer Questions on a whole range of matters. To the best of my knowledge, we have not tendered any such advice to the Table Office. I want to keep it as open as possible.

If my hon. Friend will let me know the matters on which he has sought to table Questions, I will look into them to see whether they are matters for which we should accept responsibility.

Mr. John Evans

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. Although we all appreciate the work he and his colleagues in the Department do, they may not always be there, and other Ministers may not take the line they take. My hon. Friend has always tried to help us.

With the assurance my hon. Friend has given, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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