TRANSFERENCE OF SOCIAL WORKERS OF HEALTH BOARDS TO LOCAL AUTHORITY EMPLOYMENT (Hansard, 29 April 1975)

Mr. Milan
I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.
422 The need for this provision arises from the Government's decision that social work in hospitals and other health service establishments should come under the administrative control of local authorities at the same time as local government reorganisation. Social work services in hospitals are at present provided by the health boards independently of the main social work provision by the local authorities. This change will integrate hospital and local authority social work services.
The change has been discussed with all the parties concerned and the clause simply provides for the necessary transfer of the social workers concerned, with all the protections involved. We thought at first that the clause would be unnecessary, that the change could be made without legislative provision, but we are now advised otherwise.

§ Mr. Teddy Taylor
When the Minister was dealing with health matters, I was in correspondence with him on this matter. I should declare an interest, since my wife is a medical social worker and could be affected by the new clause.
The question which concerns medical social workers is that, despite the provision in subsection (2), because of the acute shortage of social workers on the local authority side, the hospitals, by various means, may be denuded of the necessary staff for medical social work.
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This is a real fear. The Minister of State may say that subsection (2) is a protection, but normal means of promotion may result in social workers being taken from hospitals to local authorities where there is a desperate shortage of staff.
It would relieve the social workers if the Minister could give an assurance that the staff complement of medical social workers will still be the responsibility of the health board or the hospital authority. I appreciate that where there are shortages it may not be possible for a hospital to have a full complement, but it should be the job of the health board to say how many social workers are needed. At present, if there is not a full staff, a hospital authority says "Our requirement is five or six". In the same way, local authorities determine their complements, even if they may 423 not be fully staffed and have a large percentage of unskilled or untrained staff.
It would be a safeguard if the Minister gave an indication that the assessment of staff required would be given to the health authority or hospital board, because if there were a substantial shortage, at least it could be clearly demonstrated.
This question has caused concern and I hope that the Minister will give an assurance.

Mr. Hector Munro (Dumfries)
I support what my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) said about the need for a further assurance. Having been involved in this problem some time ago, I like him, was of the opinion that it could be done administratively and not in permanent legislation such as this.
It seemed to me at the time that the key point was that social workers who had a particular bent for hospital work and wished to remain in hospitals would be allowed to continue in them for the rest of their employment in the health service.
Under subsection (3) (b) (i) of the clause, it would seem that this is so, but the wording "so long as he"—or, presumably, she— is employed in duties reasonably comparable to the duties in which immediately before the transfer he was engaged". and so on, seems a little vaguer than I would have liked. Presumably there is work in the hospitals which could be deemed to be reasonably comparable, but those in certain social work departments would like the Minister to spell out firmly tonight that those working in hospitals today on medical social work will be allowed to retain their work in hospital so long as they are employed by the health board.

§ Mr. Millan
The arrangements under the clause were the subject of detailed discussion with the various interests involved, because the change is a substantial one and the intention of the Secretary of State to make the change was intimated to the various bodies concerned in October 1974. It is, therefore, not a matter which is being decided only now, although it is appearing in the Bill only now.
424 In this clause we have tried to repeat the assurances which have been given elsewhere on a number of matters and which, in a matter of this kind, inevitably cause a certain amount of concern. In the main matter raised this evening, subsection (2) is explicit. It says that anyone transferred to the employment of a local authority shall not be required in the course of that employment to perform duties otherwise than at or in connection with a hospital or other health service establishment unless he has consented to perform such duties". One could not put the provision in clearer terms than that. It protects existing staff.
Nevertheless, if the full benefits of the transfer are ultimately to be obtained, there must be the closest liaison—and the justification for the change is the necessity to obtain the closest liaison—between social workers employed in the health environment and those employed in the normal local authority environment. Therefore, we are not building in here, or in the arrangements generally, a permanent inflexibility. But there can be no compulsion. Subsection (2) makes that clear.
I should have to look in detail into the question of establishments before being categoric about it, because this is not an area for which I have day-to-day ministerial responsibility—although I did have such responsibility some years ago. It would not be right to allow the new area health board to maintain the right to determine the establishment. One could not say that that should be an unqualified right. In these matters the local authority will have the ultimate word, but I have no doubt that the arrangements provide that in determining the location of social workers in the health service establishment or hospitals the local authority will work in the closest consultation with the area health board. One cannot express the relationship in terms of the area health board's being able to determine the complement of its own free will. It is ultimately a local authority responsibility.
If hon. Members wish to pursue detailed points about the question of transfer, perhaps they will write to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State who deals with these matters. No doubt he will try to answer them.
425 This is a clause which, in the circumstances in which we have decided the transfer should be made, contains the necessary protection. I hope, therefore, that it will be welcomed by the House.

§ Mr. Teddy Taylor
I am grateful to the Minister for assuring us that he will look further into the point I raised, because it is a more serious issue than appears at first sight. In the hospitals many members of the medical staff regard the social workers as very much part of the medical team. They take part in case conferences. It would be unfortunate if the hospitals did not have an equal say in the staff complement. I hope that the Minister and his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will look into this matter in detail, because problems could arise if there were not an amicable arrangement set out in a paper which the health board and the local authority fully understood.