HC Deb 20 November 1974 vol 881 cc1325-33
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Merlyn Rees)

I will, with permission, Mr. Speaker, make a statement.

The Government are publishing today the second in their series of Discussion Papers, designed to prepare the way for the Northern Ireland Constitutional Convention. This examines how the procedures of the Constitutional Convention might be organised on the basis of experience of conventions in a number of countries. Although it is for me as the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to lay down the initial standing orders so that the Constitutional Convention can get under way, it will thereafter be for the Convention to order its own affairs. The Discussion Paper provides information on procedural matters which will help it to do so.

The Constitutional Convention was announced in the White Paper published in July this year and Parliament subsequently gave statutory authority for it. The way forward now in Northern Ireland is through that Convention. Its purpose is, in the words of the Northern Ireland Act 1974, to consider what provision for the government of Northern Ireland is likely to command the most widespread acceptance throughout the community there". It has no other purpose or rôle. It is not a legislative assembly.

The Convention is an opportunity for the people of Northern Ireland as a whole. It will be for them to elect their representatives and for those representatives to meet together and to discuss what form Northern Ireland institutions might take. There are many possible patterns, provided that both communities in Northern Ireland are prepared to support and work them.

Elections for the Convention will take place early next year, and I shall aim to give about a month's notice of the actual date. In advance of the election I intend also to announce the name of the chairman of the Convention.

Her Majesty's Government will provide the Constitutional Convention with factual information and other assistance, including a secretariat. There is, however, bound to be undesirable delay if all the arrangements for the Convention have to be made after the elections have been held, and accordingly early appointments will be made to the secretariat on a basis to be confirmed later so that it can undertake some preparatory work. It will, of course, be for the Convention to decide in due course to what use it will put this preparatory work.

After the elections, it will be for the Convention to deliberate about the future government of Northern Ireland with a view to reaching broadly-based agreement and to report its conclusions through me to Parliament, for it is with Parliament that the ultimate decision rests.

A heavy responsibility rests on the people of Northern Ireland and on those they will elect to the Constitutional Convention—the responsibility of reaching agreement with each other. It is this agreement which Northern Ireland needs, and Parliament will want to be satisfied that any proposals put forward are those likely to command the most widespread acceptance throughout the community in Northern Ireland. It is on this acceptance that peace and stability in Northern Ireland depends.

Mr. Ian Gilmour

The people of Northern Ireland will want to consider the right hon. Gentleman's Discussion Paper very carefully. We all hope that it will lead to a productive and successful Convention. Certainly at first sight it seems to be a very sensible document.

I hope that the Secretary of State is right in his evident belief that to leave virtually all procedural decisions for the Convention itself to make is likely to make it less bogged down in procedure than if he were to give it rather more definite guidance than he has given.

The right hon. Gentleman says that the elections will take place early next year and that he will give about a month's notice of the date. We all understand the usual undesirability of a very long election campaign, but, as the conditions in Northern Ireland are very unusual indeed, and as there is no Assembly now sitting, will the right hon. Gentleman consider giving a more definite indication of the date rather earlier than he at present intends to do?

Mr. Rees

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his remarks about the good sense of the document which I hope will be, like the earlier one issued on economic affairs, valuable for those who will be sitting in the Convention. The procedures are my responsibility in the early days and I should have thought that, based on the experience that I am using of the Clerk to the Assembly in Northern Ireland who is widely respected, that will be a good basis on which the Convention can proceed.

As I have indicated, it is important now to get the secretariat under way, because there is a great deal of preparatory work to do and I want to get that going in the weeks ahead. This document is full of information and contains examples of other conventions that at least to some degree can be drawn on, and I think that all of it together is the right approach to the Convention.

I think that it would be wrong to give a precise date now. I remember one of my predecessors having to change the date of an election because, in retrospect, it was found that the date had been given too early. It is clear that the elections will be in the early part of next year, but I think it much better to give the precise date when I reach the point of introducing the order in the House which at the same time will dissolve the Assembly.

Mr. Stallard

Does my right hon. Friend accept that we all welcome his document as a further constructive approach to try to solve the terrible problems of the six counties and that we share his desire to get a permanent solution? Having said that, however, does he accept that certainly amongst the minority community there are grave fears, cynicism, apathy and indifference, that the result of the elections for the Convention is already known and that the outcome of that Convention is already known?

To that extent will not my right hon. Friend consider between now and the elections the introduction of a modified Bill of Rights, to which the present Front Bench and the previous Front Bench have paid lip-service, in order to assuage some of the fears of the minority community in the six counties?

Mr. Rees

I hope that as the plan of this Convention unfolds it will be recognised that it is not an assembly, that it is a place where the people of Northern Ireland can meet together. I see its rôle as being to play some part in assuaging the fears to which my hon. Friend referred, which I accept and which my hon. Friend knows are added to by the murders currently taking place in the Province.

With regard to the question of a Bill of Rights, when I introduce the next and what will be the last discussion paper I think it will be fair to look at some of the aspects of what the previous Government did, which I confess I have not emphasised nearly enough in recent months, with regard to civil rights in the Province. I pay tribute to what they did. It is not possible to have a Bill of Rights in the short run. I hope that the Gardiner Committee report will be out soon.

The cause of the fears in both parts of the Province are the murders which take place, deep into the night, and the shooting of people on their way to work, principally and indeed only because of their religion. Those are the things that raise the fears in Northern Ireland. Anything which any of us can do to deal with that situation will assist in getting the right atmosphere for the Convention.

Mr. Molyneaux

Will the Secretary of State accept our assurance that we for our part will do all we can to bring about the restoration of law and order in the Province? Will he confirm my impression that the arrangements which he proposes to make in advance of the elections are designed merely to facilitate progress and will be subject to confirmation when the Convention meets? Also would the right hon. Gentleman care to elaborate a little on the phrase "some preparatory work"?

Finally, can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that he will bear in mind the necessity for early elections so that the Convention can get down to its work and fill the political vacuum which exists?

Mr. Rees

I confirm my intention, and as is laid down in the legislation, that it is preparatory work. It is my responsibility to prepare the rules for the early days, and it will be for the representatives in Northern Ireland, maybe in the early days through a steering committee—and I throw out that suggestion now—to get down to the rules of procedure, because I want this to be done with the agreement of the people in Northern Ireland rather than by the Secretary of State of the day.

With regard to the preparatory work, there is the need to take on staff. It is possible to use the staff of the Clerk of the Northern Ireland Assembly, whom I have praised already. There will be a need for clerical and messenger services, typing facilities, the Official Report of the proceedings, experts on a full or part-time basis and—I would need to discuss this far more deeply with those who are eventually elected to the Convention—experts in constitutional law, government and economics.

When the people of Northern Ireland consider their Government, I hope they will look at the economic aspect as well as the constitutional aspect. It is important that we consider it in depth. This is a chance for the people of Northern Ire- land to do this, and I want to provide every facility for it to be done properly.

Mr. Fitt

The Secretary of State will be aware that in the political vacuum which exists in Northern Ireland there is a mood of deep depression and despair. In the knowledge that many of the personnel who will be contesting the elections are now the elected representatives to the Assembly in Northern Ireland, will the right hon. Gentleman find it possible to call together the present elected representatives in advance of the Convention elections?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are a number of so-called Loyalist politicians who will not in any circumstances take part in talks at the present time because they believe that as a result of the outcome of the Convention elections they will be in a majority and will be in a position to dictate to the minority? In those circumstances, in a situation where there is death almost every day in Northern Ireland, will the right hon. Gentleman consider calling together the present elected representatives?

Mr. Rees

On the first point about the possible outcome of the elections, I think we had better wait and see what the precise result is. I take the point that in Northern Ireland there is a majority of one community over another. All of us take that into account. I hope that nobody will go to the Convention to dictate from a majority position or to wreck from a minority position. What matters is that the people of Northern Ireland should accept this chance. I believe that everybody in the rest of the United Kingdom will be looking most carefully at the way in which it proceeds.

With regard to the 78 present members of the old Assembly, there is no question of calling the Assembly together. I take the point that my hon. Friend has made. I would certainly be prepared to meet the leaders of the parties in Northern Ireland and talk to them about any matter at all.

Whatever is the result of the elections, when people will be considering the future government of Northern Ireland, I would be very happy to meet the existing leaders of the parties in Northern Ireland because, in my view, they all genuinely have the needs of their community at heart. I would be prepared to meet them as soon as possible.

Mr. Farr

Will the right hon. Gentleman say something about the rôle of the chairman when this Convention is elected? Will he be a fully participating chairman or will he be guiding discussions on general lines and leaving the parties concerned to carry on the work?

Secondly, is there any chance of getting the siting of the Convention away from the Stormont buildings? Whether or not one is an admirer of the Stormont buildings, both Stormont and the Assembly have met in those buildings. Both those democratic assemblies were ill fated, and it would possibly be more encouraging for the new Convention if it could meet in an entirely new atmosphere, somewhere else, where the views of all the parties concerned in Northern Ireland can be fully heard.

Mr. Rees

On the first point I commend to the hon. Gentleman page 4 of my document where I deal with the question of the chairman, and I hark back to paragraph 53 of the White Paper issued earlier in the year: …a person of high standing and impartiality from Northern Ireland. I will appoint such a person in my judgment.

There has been a great deal of talk about the siting of the Convention. There is history behind Stormont. Of course, there are counter-feelings in all parts of the community, but in my view if people meet together at Stormont where the Assembly met, and come to an agreement in the face of history instead of pushing it aside, it will be a better agreement. It is in the face of history that people have got to make agreement.

Mr. Beith

Does the Secretary of State agree that between now and the elections it is vital to stimulate discussion at every level of the community in Northern Ireland and that the Government should do what they can to assist Churches and various parties to do this? If the Convention cannot come up with a solution which is acceptable to the whole community, there will be no winners, only losers. The alternative to a widely accepted agreement is not the achieve- Ment of the extremists' demands but a struggle for survival more desperate even than the present struggle.

Mr. Rees

I hope, in the light of the previous discussion paper and another one which I propose to publish in the New Year, to stimulate discussion. I hope that groups of all sorts will discuss this matter, as occurred at the interesting seminar at Coleraine recently.

I think the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in his views about what will happen if there is no agreement.

Mr. McNamara

Is my right hon. Friend aware that we all welcome the preparatory work which he has done, and in particular the reaffirmation of paragraph 45 of the last White Paper relating to the three principles which this House will accept in reaching a solution? Will my right hon. Friend go further and say that he would welcome an opportunity to meet the present leaders of the Assembly parties and that he will take the initiative in inviting them to discuss the problems facing the Convention, and indeed meeting them together so that there can be some sort of dialogue in an effort to fill the terrible void in Northern Ireland policies at the moment and get some political action taking place to take away the initiatives from the sectarian groups?

Mr. Rees

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his earlier remarks. In the introduction I have set out the three principles contained in the original White Paper. They are there because they were in the original White Paper. Of course I shall take the initiative, but I should like a response from the leaders of the parties, recognising that since there is to be an election, people have to see who is to be elected, and no one is giving anything away by coming along. They would be coming as elected representatives. We are not looking for sell-outs. I hope that people will come. I will play my part.

Mr. Bradford

Does the Secretary of State accept that if the elected members of this Convention are to be encouraged to come to the same kind of conclusion, which is both constructive and essential, it would be wrong to impose any kind of limitation, restrictions or pre-requisities at this stage or in a further document about the Convention? When he states that it is not important just to rely on head counts, does he accept that we see very little evidence of a majority acknowledging that the minority might have a better argument?

Mr. Rees

Of the parameters I laid down, I hope that the hon. Member will take one very firmly into account—that the United Kingdom Parliament with 635 Members representing the whole of the United Kingdom bears ultimate responsibility. This is firmly laid down and it is the only basis upon which I or any other Secretary of State has operated or does operate in Northern Ireland. To claim to be loyal to the United Kingdom is to claim also to accept what the United Kingdom Parliament decides.

As for the rest, no one is imposing anything. We are appealing to those in the Province on both sides of the divide —and it is a divided Province—and we are saying, "Find a way of working together". That is what we want. It is difficult in the face of history, but that is the nature of the job.

In view of the White Paper from the United Kingdom Parliament and Government, I hope that until the election is over and people meet together they will not get themselves on to political hooks. It matters that they should be able to discuss together. It is up to the elected representatives, present and future, to face up to the responsibility of history and to meet and decide what is to be done.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I am very sorry but we must move on to the next business.