HC Deb 12 November 1974 vol 881 cc215-7
1. Mr. Percival

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what evidence she has that there are an increasing number of fraudulent claims being made for supplementary benefit; and if she will consider how the measures taken to prevent abuse can be made more effective.

The Minister of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Mr. Brian O'Malley)

None, Sir. We have figures of the number of fraudulent claims detected, and in both 1972 and 1973 the figure ran at about 14,500. The present indications are that about 5 per cent. more supplementary benefit fraud will be discovered during 1974 but this may reflect increased effectiveness on the part of my investigating staff rather than an increase in the amount of fraud.

I attach great importance to the prevention of fraud and abuse. The whole subject was, of course, reviewed by Sir Henry Fisher's committee as recently as 1973, but if the hon. and learned Member has any specific and practical suggestions to make I shall be pleased to consider them.

Mr. Percival

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for that answer. I am glad to have his assurance that he appreciates the seriousness of the point in terms which I fully accept. I think he will agree that the difficulty is in getting evidence. Does he not agree that the conduct of those who claim these benefits when earning a living elsewhere so outrages the feelings of those who work hard and end up worse off than if they had cheated, thus reflecting on the genuine cases about which we are all concerned, and is so despicable in itself that no one who has any evidence which could bring such a person to justice should ever hesitate to come forward and give it? Will the hon. Gentleman do all in his power to encourage people to do so?

Mr. O'Malley

I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that the Department, within its available resources of manpower, already acts and will continue to act as effectively as it can to prevent any abuse and fraud which hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House would strongly deprecate.

Mr. Jasper More

Will the Minister recognise that nothing gives greater offence to the decent, hard-working section of our community than these abuses? Is he able to tell the House the situation with regard to personnel in his Department, and in particular whether during the present year there has been any increase in the investigating staff to deal with these fraudulent cases?

Mr. O'Malley

The number of staff dealing with this kind of potential fraud and abuse has been increased quite substantially in recent years. Within the constraints which I mentioned, we shall do everything we can to minimise any fraud and abuse of the existing social security system.

Mr. Arthur Latham

Does my hon. Friend recollect that on many occasions I have written to him and to my right hon. Friend concerning beneficiaries who are not getting their full entitlement? Does he agree that the first moral and compassionate priority is to ensure that personnel efforts are used to ensure that those who are not getting a proper entitlement have their cases remedied before dealing with the kind of abuses that are exaggerated by the hon. and learned Member for Southport (Mr. Percival)?

Mr. O'Malley

I agree with my hon. Friend that over the years—I do not make that comment specifically about any questions which have been asked from the Opposition benches this afternoon—Conservative Members generally have exaggerated the amount of abuse of the system. That was confirmed by the Fisher Committee, which was set up by the then Conservative Government. I agree further with my hon. Friend that all the available resources and efforts of the Department must be employed to ensure that claimants receive their full entitlement to every benefit, including discretionary benefits, which would help them.