HC Deb 29 March 1974 vol 871 cc827-34

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Select Committee be appointed to advise Mr. Speaker on the control of the accommodation and services in that part of the Palace of Westminster and its precincts occupied by or on behalf of the House of Commons, and to report thereon to this House.—[Mr. Walter Harrison.]

1.35 p.m.

Mr. Peter Emery (Honiton)

This is the first time that I have had reason to speak about the Services Committee, and I do so for a specific purpose. Hon. Members will appreciate that from the Services Committee is appointed the catering subcommittee. This is one of the sub-committees which are referred to in this motion. I shall not keep the House long, but there are one or two facts which I should like to discuss.

If we turn to the Third Report of the Select Committee on the House of Com- mons Services for the Session 1971–72, we see clearly set out in paragraph 2 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, on page 7. the operating losses of the catering sub-committee for the years 1969–71. The operating losses were as follows: £33,000 for 1969, £57,000 for 1970, £11,500 for the three months up to 31st March 1971, and £68,700 in the 15 months up to 31st March 1971.

If one refers to the last account and report of the Refreshment Department, which was ordered to be printed on 10th April last year, we see that the Catering Department had a loss for the year, transferred to the balance sheet, of £22,000. Therefore, the Catering Department poses very considerable problems, and they are problems which we all appreciate—the difficulties in keeping available facilities which are open to the maximum abuse. An alteration in the business of this House can impose great strains on the Catering Department, and at the shortest of notice the situation can change from one in which there is no demand to a situation in which everybody needs to be fed quite late at night.

It is therefore of particular interest to note that paragraph 9 of the last report to which I referred states: It is quite clear that the Department will continue to run at a substantial loss with no prospect in the foreseeable future of making an overall profit. That is a very depressing thought and I do not accept that willingly as a fact. I believe that with the remarkable facilities which we have in this House we ought to be able to ensure that the Catering Department operates at a profit.

It is within the recollection of many hon. Members that this has been achieved in the past. Sir William Steward, in those days Mr. Steward, the then Member for Woolwich, West, took over the running of the catering sub-committee when it was making a loss. He ran it, I believe, for six years and turned that loss into a profit. It is interesting to note that it was done by a gentleman who was a trained caterer, experienced in catering, who had spent the whole of his life in the successful management of a catering business for profit. I think it may be said that Bill Steward got his knighthood for the work he did in the reorganisation of the Kitchen Committee, or at least that was one of the considerations.

A considerable amount of money has been spent on the reorganisation of the kitchens. They are now well modernised and are up to the standard of the best catering establishments. The position with staff wages, although not entirely satisfactory, has been improved considerably so that in the last few years we have been more consistently able to keep staff than was possible in the mid-1960s.

Those who watch what goes on in the House will have noticed that the motion was down for consideration yesterday and yet it appears on the Order Paper again today. The reason is that I objected to it yesterday, and I admit to having done so in order that others will not be blamed. I did so because we now have in the House an hon. Member who was apprenticed at the Dorchester. He served in the war and he was then the manager of the Martinez Hotel, Cannes. He has been consultant to the New Mauritius Hotels, a director of the very successful chain of Genevieve Restaurants, he has been proprietor of the Royal Court theatre club for ten years and he is a consultant to Oddenino's. He has had his own television programme on food and he has been food editor of one of the weeklies.

I should have thought that if the House could persuade him to take over chairmanship of the catering subcommittee it would be to the advantage of every hon. Member, of the staff, of the Press and of everybody else. If he could be persuaded to give his time to the job, without any reference perhaps to some of his less culinary advertising—which I am sure all hon. Members would want to stay away from—it would be of advantage to all those who use the facilities.

I am sorry, therefore, that the hon. Member for Isle of Ely (Mr. Freud) is not included among the names in the motion on the Services Committee. I understand from inquiries that the reason that only one nomination has come from the Liberal Party is that there was no certainty that the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely would be made chairman of the catering sub-committee. I have ascertained that if he were to be asked to be chairman of the sub-committee, he would accept the task. It is not a task over which people are likely to fight and it entails much hard work and requires managerial experience in catering, cooking and staff management.

The chairman of the catering subcommittee has by tradition always been appointed from the Government benches. But this can hardly be considered a party political matter and I cannot believe that politics, the Opposition or the Government enter into the successful running of one of the sub-committees concened with the services of the House. I hope that the Deputy Chief Whip will seriously consider extending an invitation to the hon. Member with the idea that he and I and all our hon. Friends would be likely to benefit from his considerable experience in these matters. Surely this is an appointment which does not have to be made on a political basis and is one which for the good of the House could be shared.

Therefore I urge the Deputy Chief Whip to show magnanimity over the matter—and it would require magnanimity because in all probability the person who has expressed willingness to take on the job would, magnanimously, have to stand down. I can understand the problems that would create. By this one move the Government could make a major contribution towards the Catering Department being better managed by its sub-committee than for many years. It would be a chance for catering in the House to move out of the red and into the black.

I apologise to the Deputy Chief Whip for detaining him on a Friday but he will appreciate that I had to stay, too. I hope that he will accept that I have raised this matter in the most friendly way because it is potentially beneficial to the whole House.

1.48 p.m.

Mr. Walter Harrison (Treasurer of Her Majesty's Household)

I thank the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) for giving me the opportunity of dealing with this matter today. On many occasions I have to stay on a Friday, sometimes until four o'clock, but that fact is not often recognised and I now have an opportunity to go on record and reply to the query which has been raised.

The hon. Member knows full well that he and I discussed this matter last night for about 45 minutes. Over a period of 14 days I have been attempting to set up the Committee. I have held all the appropriate consultations with the parties involved. I agree with the hon. Member that appointments to the Services Committee are important, especially in view of the large numbers of people affected by its actions.

I have been concerned with this serious problem over the past 14 days. I have made recommendations in various ways after having full discussions with the appropriate people in the appropriate parties. Eventually the Liberal Party decided not to nominate the hon. Member for Isle of Ely (Mr. Freud) to the Services Committee. I said to the Chief Whip of the Liberal Party that if his party desired to change its nomination the Government would accept that position. Last night I attempted to place before the House the recommendations for hon. Members to serve on the Committee. That was done on the basis of their ability and their knowledge of the desires of their colleagues. The Government thought that such Members were best suited to serve the services of this place.

As late as last night the Liberal Party did not desire to change its nomination. If it had desired to do so I should readily have agreed. I said that I could not give it the assurance that the hon. Member for Isle of Ely would be the chairman of the Committee, which is an important position. Profit and loss are not the only criteria which must be considered. Sometimes knowledgeable and expert people, possibly gourmets of the top bracket, are not always the best people to decide what is best for the services of this place.

I have realised since I first came here that the services have gradually improved. Sometimes Members with various experience, or less knowledgeable Members, have served on committees and have made the finest contributions. I well remember a conversation, Mr. Speaker, which you and I had in Bermuda in 1968. You may recall that the conversation was about experience and expertise in relation to a certain Department. You may remember that you assured the Prime Minister of the day, a man who served the House and the nation very well, that a Minister with expertise might well be the appropriate man for a certain Department but that other considerations also applied

Sometimes 100 per cent. expertise does not always contribute to the well-being of a Department. Sometimes the man with an inquiring mind, because he is not fully knowledgeable of what is required, is in a far better position to probe and find out the problems. The expert who can expound his views does not always meet exactly what is required. We could well have as chairman of the Committee a Member who would be totally efficient in the best hotels throughout the world. We could have a Member with great expertise and efficiency who could be the wrong man to deal with the services of the House.

I have consulted all the appropriate people. I know full well that sometimes it is best not to have the complete expert but to have a man who really understands the place. I am still willing to consider, if so required by the usual channels, the name of any Member which is put to me. I am willing to consider such a nomination and to have the usual discussions. I feel that it is sometimes best for a man with experience and expertise not always to be in the key position but possibly to act as a watchdog.

In my selection of members for the Committee from the Government benches there are Members who in various ways have catering expertise. One such Member has not been nominated, because it must be remembered that the Committee has power to appoint Sub-Committees. Further, Committees have the power to appoint chairmen. It is Committees which determine who shall be Chairmen of the appropriate Sub-Committees.

Naturally the initial nominations represent the views of the Government and the Opposition following the appropriate discussions. I deal only with the nominations to the Services Committee itself. Hon. Members will know of the various wheelings and dealings that go on in the House. The hon. Member for Honiton knows that I consulted him last night.

I am well aware that there have been discussions about who would be the appropriate chairman. It could well be that my judgment is wrong, but I have gone through the negotiations which are normally recognised while dealing with the appropriate nominations to the Committee. It is then left to the Committee to decide the composition of the various Sub-Committees. If a Member's name is put to me, I am willing to accept it if the matter can be dealt with by deleting one name and substituting that other nominee's name. I would do that willingly next week. It cannot be predetermined that because a certain Member is to be appointed to the parent Committee he will qualify to be chairman of a Sub-Committee. That matter must be decided by the Committee.

I feel that it is important to have on the Committee long-serving Members who can appreciate the desires of their colleagues, some of whom may not be gourmets. I do not want any fancy dishes. I am a down-to-earth man. I like my roast beef and Yorkshire pudding. If we had a gourmet as chairman of the Sub-Committee, he might not be the appropriate person to represent my desires. The Services Committee is an important Committee and I think that our judgment has been wise. However, I am still willing to accept nominations.

Mr. Emery

With the leave of the House, I should like to say that I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's reply. I am only too willing to let the matter go forward as there is vital work for the Services Committee. Perhaps hon. Members who have not been present during the debate will read what has been said. In that way we might be able to proceed.

Mr. Harrison

I am willing to accept nominations.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to advise Mr. Speaker on the control of the accommodation and services in that part of the Palace of Westminster and its precincts occupied by or on behalf of the House of Commons, and to report thereon to this House:

Ordered, That the Committee do consist of Sixteen Members: Committee was accordingly nominated of Dr. Reginald Bennett, Mr. Arthur Bottomley, Mr. Richard Buchanan, Mr. Robert Cooke, Mr. James A. Dunn, Mr. Reginald Eyre, Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg, Mr. Ben Ford, Mr. Walter Harrison, Mr. Jasper More, Mr. John Robertson, Mr. Giles Shaw. Mr. Urwin, Mr. Bernard Weatherill. Mr. Phillip Whitehead, and Dr. Michael Winstanley.

Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee:

Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House and to report from time to time:

Ordered, That the Committee have power to appoint Sub-committees and to refer to such Subcommittees any of the matters referred to the Committee:

Ordered, That Two be the Quorum of every such Sub-Committee:

Ordered, That every such Sub-committee do have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House; and to report to the Committee from time to time:

Ordered, That the Committee have power to report from time to time the Minutes of Evidence taken before Sub-committees and reported by them to the Committee:

Ordered, That any Sub-committee which may be appointed to deal with the organisation of, and the provision of services in the Library, do have the assistance of the Librarian:

Ordered, That the Minutes of the Evidence taken before the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) and before any Subcommittee of that Committee in the last Session of the last Parliament and reported to the House on 7th and 8th February be referred to the Committee.—[Mr. Walter Harrison.]

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