HC Deb 20 June 1974 vol 875 cc665-8
12. Mr. Cormack

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many illegal immigrants have been detected in each of the last three years; and whether he will make a statement.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon)

Eighty-four illegal entrants against whom action could be taken were detected during 1971; 59 during 1972; and 258 during 1973. The latter figure includes foreign nationals, for whom records were kept for the first time in 1973.

Mr. Cormack

I thank the Minister of State for that reply. Is he satisfied with the degree of co-operation and coordination between our authorities and those on the Continent in tackling this serious problem?

Mr. Lyon

Yes. We are constantly seeking ways to improve our checks against evasion and illegal smuggling. We have a department which is co-operating with authorities not only in Europe but all over the world.

Mr. Arthur Latham

Does my hon. Friend accept that many hon. Members on this side of the House resent intensely the remarks made a few minutes ago by the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) speaking from the Opposition Front Bench? Will my hon. Friend—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Member must relate his supplementary question to the Question.

Mr. Latham

Indeed I am, Mr. Speaker. I want to go on from that point to ask my hon. Friend whether he will give an assurance that any investigations conducted under this heading will be made by the legitimate police force, which is answerable to the Home Secretary, who is then accountable to this House, not by private security firms with which the right hon. Gentleman on the Opposition Front Bench is or has been associated?

Sir K. Joseph rose

—

Mr. Lyon

Perhaps I may answer my hon. Friend. I must leave the right hon. Gentleman to deal with the personal matters relating to him.

In our security checks for the prevention of illegal smuggling and illegal entrance we rely upon the immigration service and, to some extent, the police. We do not rely upon any private security organisation at all.

Mr. Grieve

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the scope of the international organisations responsible for illegal immigration, which has been disclosed in a number of criminal trials, indicates an operation on a vast scale between the Indian subcontinent and this country, and shows that far larger numbers of illegal immigrants are reaching this country than have been disclosed by the official figures that he gave this afternoon? Does he consider that the amnesty that Her Majesty's Government have granted to illegal immigrants is a great encouragement to illegal immigration? Will he therefore reconsider this policy?

Mr. Lyon

I do not agree with anything that the hon. and learned Gentleman said.

It is clear from the figures produced by both the previous Government and this Government that the number of those who come to the notice of the authorities is so small that the likelihood of this hidden iceberg, to which the hon. and learned Gentleman constantly refers, is remote. The fact that he goes on asserting time and again that there is this vast inflow is merely designed to inflame race relations in this country rather than to get at the root of the problem that we must tackle.

Mr. Grieve

May I ask the hon. Gentleman—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot have a debate.

Mr. Fernyhough

May I ask my hon. Friend to tell us how many of those illegal immigrants were white, how many were coloured, how many came from the United States, and how many came from Europe before we joined the EEC?

Mr. Lyon

My right hon. Friend will have to put down a Question before I can possibly give the answer that he requires. I have to deal daily with those who are deported under the law as it exists. I find that they come from all parts of the world, and that they are of different colours.

Mr. Grieve

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Gentleman said that my question was designed to inflame racial prejudice—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is not a point of order. It is a point of argument.

Mr. Lane

Is it not obvious that the Government's amnesty for a past category of illegal immigrants may have the effect, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve) said, of encouraging more illegal immigration in future? Will the Minister of State give an absolute assurance that the Government will vigorously pursue all the measures to counter illegal immigration that the last Government were developing?

Mr. Lyon

It will not have that effect, because it was designed to cover only a very limited number of illegal entrants who were dealt with under the retrospective legislation of the 1971 Act. We are increasing our checks against any kind of illegal immigration. In general, those who evade immigration laws will be sent back.

Sir K. Joseph

Am I entitled, on a point of order—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. I shall rule on this matter. I should prefer the right hon. Gentleman to raise his point of order at the end of Question Time.

Later—

Sir K. Joseph

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Paddington (Mr. Latham) suggested that I am or was connected with a security firm. Although I can see nothing discreditable in such a connection, I wish to say to the House that I am not and was not so connected.

Mr. Latham

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. In my anxiety to convince you, Mr. Speaker, that my supplementary question was in order, I inadvertently used the definite article. I did not intend to say" the right hon. Gentleman on the Opposition Front Bench "but" right hon Gentlemen on the Opposition Front Bench". I apologise to the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph).

Mr. Grieve

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In the course of his answer to my supplementary question on Question No. 12—the Question tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South-West (Mr. Cormack)—the Minister of State, Home Office said that my question was designed to inflame racial prejudice. My question was designed to do nothing of the sort. I do not expect the Minister to agree with me, and I think that he is wrong, but it is wrong of him to impute that my question had base and criminal motives, and I ask him to withdraw.

Mr. Lyon

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. On reflection, which I began in the middle of my answer to the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, which caused me to stop, I recognise that I did the hon. Gentleman an injustice. I think that instead of "designed" I should have said "calculated".