HC Deb 26 July 1974 vol 877 cc2016-23

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Farr

The clause introduces into the Bill the vital rôle of local authorities in road works. It mentions several important aspects that local authorities have to take into account, other than studying accidents. They have also to concentrate on the construction, improving, maintenance and repair of roads and the construction of new roads.

I regret that the clause does not cover a matter about which I wrote to the Minister only a few weeks ago, namely, the responsibility of a local authority or its agents to make sure that warning signs are removed when road works have been completed for the night or for the weekend. I have met many illustrations of this recently. When men down their tools for the night, they lock up the tools and clear the road, but they leave the warning signs. If motorists see these signs at night and at weekends and find that they are not applicable; they tend to discount them, and the consequences may be fatal.

I know from the letters that the Minister sent me a week or two ago that he is calling the attention of local authorities to the importance of ensuring that road signs that they or their agents put up are removed when they are no longer applicable. Is it not possible for some mention of this matter to be made in the clause?

This is not a matter of an isolated instance. One can find successive examples of road works having been temporarily halted with the road signs left fully displayed. I should like the attention of local authorities to be officially called to their responsibilities in this respect.

Mr. Max Madden (Sowerby)

I want to refer to the power for controlling, protecting, or assisting the movement of traffic on the roads mentioned in the clause, for there seems to be a serious omission from these powers, and that is in respect of night car rallies. This is a problem that concerns my constituency.

Tomorrow night, about 90 rally cars will be travelling through my constituency between midnight and 2 am. This is the latest of what seems to be a never-ending stream of car rallies that are organised in the Calder Valley area of West Yorkshire. We are becoming the Mecca of night car rallies, which present a serious threat for road safety and cause local residents considerable nuisance and disturbance.

We learned of this latest rally only a few days ago, when one of my constituents was given a letter from the club involved which said that cars would be passing her house and that approval for the rally had been given by the chief constable of West Yorkshire and the RAC. I investigated the situation and found that permission for such rallies comes under the Motor Vehicles (Competitions and Trials) Regulations 1969. It appears that no approval is needed for competitions involving fewer than 12 cars, but when more than 12 are concerned, approval has to be gained from the RAC. Applications are submitted by the individual car clubs to the RAC, which merely asks the police and other immediately interested parties for comments on the proposed route.

We have been able to obtain some last-minute rerouting of this rally, but the situation is most unsatisfactory. Drastic improvements in the regulations are urgently required. Local authorities should be the bodies giving approval to such events, not the RAC, which must clearly favour motoring organisations and does not have the necessary local knowledge of the proposed routes. It is also inperative that the clubs advertise in the local Press what routes are proposed to be used, so that local residents may have ample and early opportunity to object. I should be grateful if the Minister would consider reviewing the regulations in the sense I have suggested.

Mr. Tony Newton (Braintree)

May I briefly detain the Committee to ask one simple, straightforward and basic question, which is, who is to pay for all this? I imagine that all of us are in favour of anything that can be done to improve road safety and that we are all in favour of local authorities preparing and implementing a programme of measures. However, one thing that has struck all of us more than anything else in the past few months has been the complaint from district and county councillors that Parliament is endlessly asking them to do all sorts of desirable things, but then not making the money available and leaving them stuck with the problem of finance. I do not have the quotation with me, but I believe that the Secretary of State for the Environment himself, whose Bill this presumably is, was making much the same point the other day.

I should be grateful for a brief comment on whether the Government will provide any finance, so that the Bill does not mean just another piece of machinery for local authorities and another burden on the rates.

12.30 p.m.

Mr. John H. Osborn

Subsection (2) provides that Each local authority shall prepare and carry out a programme of measures designed to promote road safety…. That is a powerful and vague provision and appears to have no end to its scope. I would be the first to advocate that local authorities should have strong powers, but to what extent is that subsection a new departure from what local authorities, under another "hat", have been doing in the past?

The Minister and I know that halfway between our two constituencies a driving and road safety school was set up. I was fully in agreement with that move. It was designed partly as an educational endeavour and partly to promote road safety. It was set up two years ago, and somebody had to pay for it. In fact, the local authorities footed the Bill. Will standards be laid down to enable local authorities to know what is expected of them? If no guidelines are laid down, an enthusiastic local authority may commit ratepayers to a huge burden, whereas a dilatory authority may be thanked by its ratepayers for doing nothing.

I advocate any measure aimed to promote road safety and to encourage drivers to become more proficient. I was involved in a skid some years ago and I ended up on the verge of the road. I did not know what to do to cope with that skid, but since then I have had the opportunity to practise, under instruction, on a skid pad. That skid pad was set up two or three years ago under the Conservative Goverment. Will the Minister tell the House whether, the powers in the Bill are much greater than the present powers? It would be useful to have some guidance.

Mr. Goodhart

I am concerned about the fact that trunk roads appear to be excluded from roads on which local authorities have to carry out studies into accidents. Most serious accidents take place on trunk roads or at junctions with local authority roads.

Some months ago I went to a dangerous area on a trunk road in my constituency and suggested to officials that double white lines should be painted on the road at that point. However, I was told that because of the national regulations it was impossible to have an adequate length of double white line. A few days ago there was a fatal acident at that point. It is close to a crossing where a local road meets the trunk road. I hope that the Minister will make plain that local authorities will not be prevented from undertaking studies into accidents on trunk roads, although they may not have the final authority in respect of those roads.

Mr. Mulley

A number of different points have been raised on Clause 8—a clause which appeared in the Conservative Government's legislation on road traffic. It was produced following full consultation and discussion with the local authorities, and has been widely welcomed.

I was asked who would bear the costs of the provision. Expenditure is already incurred under local authorities' permissive powers. The purpose of the clause is to extend those powers. It will attract rate support grant and under the new arrangements, which will take effect from 1st April next year, local authorities will be eligible for transport supplementary grant. The nature and extent of the expenditure is a matter for local authorities.

I share the concern which has been expressed about the level of rates, but at the same time—and here I take up the point made by the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart)—it is important that local authorities should have powers to carry out studies into accidents and so forth. This is a relevant consideration in their priorities as to how they should spend money on roads, and against this will attract transport supplementary grant. It is logical that they should have the additional powers. However, their discretion and initiative in exercising those powers is a matter for them.

I appreciate the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden) about the great nuisance and disturbance caused to his constituents by motor rallies being allowed to take place in unsuitable conditions. The point does not arise directly out of Clause 8, but I appreciate that my hon. Friend feels that local authorities should have more power to deal with that situation. I know that he personally has done everything a Member of Parliament can do to try to mitigate the difficulties by approaching local authorities, the police, and the Royal Automobile Club which is responsible for these rallies. If my hon. Friend wishes to have a word with me, or would like to bring some of his constituents to see me, I shall be pleased to see in what way we can help. However, I cannot see how I can help my hon. Friend in this Bill.

The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) raised the important question of road signs. I have not his letter with me, although I remember it in general terms. He will understand that I receive a large number of letters on transport matters and that I do not carry all the details in my head. However, he made a valid point. I do not think that at this late stage it would be right to spell out even if it were possible to do so, how local authorities should exercise their responsibilities. This is not the way in which Parliament or central Government should try to do things. We are trying to give them greater powers and, I hope, some resources to go with them. We shall be pleased to look at the matter again, if the hon. Member believes that the situation is not satisfactory, to see whether advice should be given to local authorities. However, I do not want to send round to local authorities too many circulars which in themselves may incur expenditure. I have already been taken to task on that point a little earlier in our discussions.

Mr. Graham Page

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the point about the trunk roads?

Mr. Mulley

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for reminding me of that omission. I shall be happy to discuss the question of the transfer of trunks roads and the matter of local authority responsibilities. The big problem is that of expense. Again, this could affect the rates. The reason that local authorities are not anxious to discharge any kind of responsibilities on trunk roads is that because trunk roads are the Secretary of State's responsibility, all expenses connected therewith are met from central rather than from local funds. Any transfer of Function would involve rate contribution.

Mr. Goodhart

What will happen when local authorities wish to study accident situations on trunk roads in their areas?

Mr. Mulley

There is no harm in local authorities studying these matters, but studies usually involve expenditure. Normally in the administration of trunk roads the local authorities can be used as the agents of central Government, but in those circumstances the powers lie with the Secretary of State. Local authorities undertake work in this respect, but they are totally reimbursed by central Government so that no cost falls on the ratepayer.

Mr. Graham Page

I hope that we may have from the Minister a better assurance than he has given. It was at one time the intention to de-trunk all trunk roads. But until that happens there is a division of responsibility involving the organisation which used to be called the DRE but which now falls within the, responsibility of the Regional Controller (Roads), or some similar name. The responsibility is divided between that official and the county highway surveyor—the one dealing with trunk roads and the other with other roads. There is difficulty where there are junctions of the two.

I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider giving the agency to local authorities to deal with trunk roads when they are carrying out a survey. It is ridiculous that they should carry out the letter of the clause and survey all the roads in their district except trunk roads. They must deal with the roads as a whole.

I appreciate that the wording has to be as it is in the statute, but the only way in which local authorities can look at roads as a whole is for the Department to give them the agency to look at the trunk roads as part of the survey.

Mr. Mulley

The right hon. Gentleman spent much longer in the Department of the Environment than I have done so far, and he had particular responsibility for roads. I said that it is our desire, when legislation is possible and the financial aspects can be resolved, to de-trunk roads if the local authorities think that this would be of assistance. But I do not trade on intention. I cannot do it today. We have been in office for just over four and a half months, and it would be a substantial financial and legislative operation to de-trunk roads which are within the purview of local authorities. That does not arise on the road safety clause.

Mr. John H. Osborn

The Minister has not quite answered my question which concerned the extent to which the rate support grant will be used to encourage road safety. A school has been set up in Sheffield for this purpose. Does the Minister visualise that similar projects in other areas will have the benefit of rate support grant?

Mr. Mulley

The rate support grant which is available for existing road safety expenditure is spelt out in the Financial Memorandum, and that expenditure will also be an element in the new transport supplementary grant. No one can say how the powers will be exercised by local authorities because unless the Bill is passed they will not have powers. Local authorities must know what they can do before formulating projects. In the present economic climate of stringency they may not be able to do as much as the hon. Gentleman and I would like, but that is why we have left the initiative to the local authorities.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

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