HC Deb 25 July 1974 vol 877 cc1793-7
6. Mr. Mather

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many former internees in Northern Ireland have been rearrested for suspected acts of terrorism.

Mr. Orme

It would take a disproportionate amount of effort to determine the total number of former internees and detainees who have been rearrested for suspected acts of terrorism.

Mr. Mather

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that figures have been made available in the past? I am surprised that he is not able to produce figures. Is the Minister saying that the answer was wrong?

Mr. Merlyn Rees

No. The hon. Gentleman is asking the wrong question.

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot have this dialogue. Let the hon. Member for Esher (Mr. Mather) ask his supplementary question.

Mr. Mather

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the number of former internees who have been released who have returned to terrorism and are now wanted for terrorist offences but have not yet been arrested? Will he bear uppermost in his mind, when releasing further internees, the security of our forces in Northern Ireland and their point of view?

Mr. Orme

It would not be proper to disclose a person's previous convictions, or the fact that he had been detained, before his trial. Internment or detention is not a previous conviction and it does not appear in the court records even after trial.

Mr. Dalyell

What do the Government think of the proposals emanating from such different sources as Frank McManus and Gusby Spence that the balance of risk should allow many more prisoners to be allowed out of Long Kesh and that if they were picked up again there should be severe sentences?

Mr. Orme

The Government want to see the end of detention without trial, but we cannot play about with the issue. If the Government end detention without trial, that system must end. We cannot have another standard, or we shall once more restart the issue. That is why the Government want to work towards ending detention without trial in its entirety.

Mr. Ian Gilmour

Will the right hon. Gentleman elucidate his original answer? Surely it is possible to know the people who have been interned since 1971. There must be a list of them. Surely it is equally possible to know the people who have been arrested for suspected acts of terrorism since then. By correlating the two lists it must be perfectly easy to get a correct answer.

Mr. Orme

It is not easy, because the security forces do not keep figures on a Province-wide basis for all former internees and detainees who are rearrested because of their suspected reinvolvement in terrorism. Such a statistic would be provided only after a thorough examination of the daily charge sheets for the last three years.

Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles

I realise that Ministers have to make some difficult decisions, but does the right hon. Gentleman understand how depressing it is for the security forces when people whom they have picked up are released and then return to terrorist activities? Has he in operation any system of parole by which people who have been released in rather doubtful cases can be required to report to the police daily? They could be picked up again quickly if they did not report before they returned to terrorist activities.

Mr. Orme

On the first point, there is a later Question on the Order Paper, and I would ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to await that.

There is parole for detainees over which the Government and the Secretary of State have jurisdiction. The issue of parole generally is being considered by the Government. Having people report on that kind of basis following the ending of detention would be completely impracticable.

Captain Orr

I appreciate the possible difficulty of giving previous figures, but surely it is very much in the public interest that figures should be kept from now on, because plainly it must be of value to the public to know what the situation is to enable them to evaluate the necessity for releases from detention. Will the right hon. Gentleman, in a limited sense, tell us how many people who have formerly been detained and released have since been charged with offences?

Mr. Orme

There is a later Question on both those points. On the general thesis of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's supplementary question, it would be extremely difficult to compile the figures to which he refers. There is also the principle of British justice. If a person is arrested it does not mean that he is guilty. He is liable to be charged. The fact of release or previous convictions is not disclosed until after conviction. Records are not kept of internment, because it is not a criminal charge.

16. Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, of the 65 detainees released shortly before Christmas 1973, how many have subsequently been picked up and re-interned for terrorist activities.

Mr. Orme

Of these 65 detainees, 10 have been rearrested and made the subject of interim custody orders.

Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that answer. Will he now deal with the question about the reaction to these figures among the security forces?

Mr. Orme

So far as we understand, the security forces were notified of pending releases before they were made last December. It is regrettable that some people have returned to violence, but a large proportion have not. The percentage in many ways is much better than one would get in normal prison statistics.

Mr. Dalyell

Following the recent disturbances inside Long Kesh, what is now the policy towards different parties talking with one another inside the camp?

Mr. Orme

My hon. Friend was there at the time of the disturbances and we were under pressure from him because the Provisionals wanted to talk to the Loyalists. Unfortunately, the recent disturbances were between Loyalists—the UDA and the UVF.

Mr. van Straubenzee

Of those releases, were there any numbers additional to those which have been given who were charged before the courts? Is the Minister satisfied that a figure of 10 out of 65 should do other than make him anxious about substantial further releases of detainees, remembering that this is the other side of the coin upon which we ask the Army to work within the law?

Mr. Orme

I do not want to make debating capital, but the hon. Member was one of the Ministers involved at the time. Two or three of these people have actually been brought before the courts, as opposed to being re-detained.

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