HC Deb 17 July 1974 vol 877 cc574-605
Mr. Pardoe

I beg to move Amendment No. 200, in page 9, line 35, leave out paragraph (b) and insert— '(b) at the end of subsection (1) there shall be added the following words: "Provided always that as regards any debt incurred after August 1st 1974 for which this Section gives relief the amount of interest thereon shall only be deducted from or set off against a person's income for the purpose of assessing that person's liability to income tax at the basic rate only, and no relief thereon shall be given in respect of higher rates of tax or the investment income surcharge "'. This is a remarkable amendment since it proposes to increase Government revenue from the better off. It is a redistributive measure, and if the Government do not accept every dot and comma of the amendment, I hope that they will accept its spirit and its main purpose.

Normally in these discussions one asks the Government how much a particular proposal will cost. In this case I must ask the Government how much the amendment will not cost—in other words, what is the negative cost of the provision, and how much extra revenue will the Government obtain if it goes through?

My colleagues and I entirely agree with the Government's decision to limit the tax relief on mortgages below a certain figure. One can argue whether £25,000 is a correct figure. It sounds fairly large in some parts of the country, but it is not so large elsewhere. However, the Government have settled for a national figure and I shall not argue about its size.

We should be certain—and this is the purpose of the amendment—about what we are trying to do in limiting the top level of mortgages in terms of tax relief. We are trying to limit the amount of tax so that the Government may help owner-occupiers in buying their own homes. That is a purpose which hon. Members in all parts of the House will share. We also want to concentrate whatever money is available from the public purse for the encouragement of owner-occupation upon those who most need it, especially those who cannot afford to buy homes without Government help.

Under the Bill as it is drafted, the interest on a loan up to £25,000 obtained for house purchase or for improvement will be allowed against all rates of tax. Our amendment seeks to limit the relief to the basic rate of tax only.

Let me give some examples of what the amendment will do, because these demonstrate its effectiveness with greater clarity. My first example is a loan of £25,000 and a rate of interest of 11 per cent. I take the top end of the scale and someone with what to most of us is a grotesque income of £25,000 plus £5,000 investment income. There are such people. Under our arrangements, the relief would be £900. Under the Government's proposals, the relief from the public purse to such a person would be £2,700. We do not want to give a tax concession of £2,700 out of the public purse to encourage someone with an income of £25,000 plus an investment income of £5,000 a year to buy a house.

Example No. 2 is again a £25,000 loan and again an 11 per cent, rate of interest. In this case, the individual has two children, an earned income of £11,000 and an investment income of £2,000. Under the Government's proposals, the relief would be £1,700. Under our proposal, it would be £900.

My third example comes down to a level which most of us can understand since it involves a £10,000 loan, again with an interest rate of 11 per cent. In this case the person concerned has an earned income of £8,000. Under the Government's proposals, the relief would be £500. Under our proposals, it would be £360.

My final example is a £10,000 loan, again at a rate of interest of 11 per cent. In this case, however, the individual has an earned income of £6,000 plus £2,000 unearned income. Under the present system, he gets £600 relief. Under our proposal, it would be £360.

It seems to my right hon. and hon. Friends, therefore, that this amendment goes along the route which the Government have already charted. It is fair and just. It is redistributive. It uses the public money available for the encouragement of owner-occuption in a much better fashion.

If I may mention the investment income surcharge, surely most people who pay the surcharge will have capital available. If a person has it directly in his own name, he derives the investment income from that capital directly, and he can sell that capital for the purpose of buying a house or improving the house that he already owns. Alternatively, if the capital is not in his name but he has an income from investments under a settlement, normally he can raise money from the source from which the income comes. Certainly it can be raised against that source. Should we use public money to encourage such people to borrow for house purchases?

If we pass this amendment, such people will be discouraged from borrowing. More funds will be available for house purchase for those who need it. Another consequence may be that interest rates on money for house purchase are kept down.

Lastly, whilst those requiring a mortgage in circumstances where they can set off the interest only at the basic rate of tax would not normally try to borrow more than they need, those who can set off most of their interest against tax—those in the higher tax bracket—would sometimes deliberately purchase for investment reasons residences more expensive than they would otherwise be happy to acquire. People in that category try to obtain high loans, and they will inevitably go for the maximum available on the same principle as most people took up their full sweets ration during the war. We wish to discourage those at the top end of the income scale. Therefore, I hope that the Financial Secretary will feel able to accept this egalitarian, immensely radical and redistributive amendment which will go some way to paying for one or two of the amendments which we have helped to pass in the last two days.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Dr. John Gilbert)

This amendment, like so many of the proposals emanating from the Liberal Party, has a certain attractive simplicity. But the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) has misunderstood the purpose behind the whole corpus of the Government's proposals in the sphere of interest relief. We are not setting out to discourage anyone from borrowing for house purchase. We have set out to discourage the expenditure of money on expensive homes and on second homes. That has been the principal thrust of our purpose.

The hon. Gentleman quite legitimately took illustrations from certain high income situations. The effect of his proposal would start to bite on the man or woman with a mortgage whose income was about £6,000 a year—a little higher if there were children and a little lower if there were not. We do not consider that relief should be tapered off for people who are not considered wealthy at that level of income.

Moreover, there are various administrative reasons for the Government not recommending this proposal to the House despite all its superficial attractiveness. If the amendment were adopted we would find ourselves with three separate sets of rules covering house purchase. For debts incurred on or before Budget Day there would be full relief for up to six years. Qualifying loans taken out after Budget Day but before 1st August—the hon. Gentleman has put 1st August in his amendment, presumably to avoid any charge on retrospection—would apparently still qualify for relief in full at both the basic and higher rates until they were finally paid off. Loans taken out after 1st August would be eligible for relief only against the basic rate. In other words, there would be three sets of rules operating simultaneously according to the dates on which the loans were taken out.

There is a further difficulty. The amendment as drafted would have the effect, no doubt unintentional, of restoring relief for interest paid on overdrafts, credit card debits and similar arrangements. We have sought to end relief in those directions with a transitional period of 12 months.

Finally, the denial of relief to the higher rates of income tax would introduce fresh complications into the PAYE system. The House will appreciate that under the unified tax system it is a complicated matter to give relief against the basic rate of tax and not against the higher rates of tax. All in all, the Government believe that the 1969 type of legislation, to which we have reverted, with the new restrictions on interest for large properties and second homes, is to be preferred to the course advocated by the hon. Gentleman.

9.45 p.m.

Mr. George Cunningham

I accept the statement of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary that administratively the amendment would be inconvenient and inappropriate. For that reason I would not support the Liberal Party if it went to a Division on this matter tonight.

Nevertheless, my hon. Friend has overstated the case against the principle of the amendment. Some of us have been arguing for a long time before the Liberal Party thought of it that the relief given to mortgage borrowers was excessive and that in particular an amendment of this kind was needed to give to those who paid the higher rate of tax the same amount of tax relief as is given to the basic rate tax payer. That principle has already been adopted in the past in relation to insurance relief. It does not apply at the present time. It applied in the past when the relief was restricted to the relief that would have been given to a person paying at the basic rate.

The hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) gave his examples in relation to the total amount of cash relief that would be provided. I think that a more telling way of making the point is to take the effective interest rate that a taxpayer, at various marginal rates of tax, pays after taking account of the tax relief which he receives.

Assuming that a borrower is paying 11 per cent. gross, if he is a basic rate taxpayer his net cost is 7.4 per cent. Some people find it difficult to accept that even at the basic rate a person can borrow from a building society and re-lend the same money to the same branch of the same building society and turn a profit on it because of the difference in the incidence of tax on the borrowing and the lending of money in relation to building societies.

The difference becomes greater when one considers a person who is paying a marginal rate of tax higher than the basic rate. A person paying at the basic rate has a net cost of 7.4 per cent. A taxpayer paying at the marginal rate of 38 per cent. is paying for his money only 6.8 per cent. At a maginal rate of 43 per cent. he is paying only 6.3 per cent. At a maginal rate of 48 per cent. he is paying only 5.7 per cent. At the top of the scale, in the case of a person paying at the marginal rate of 83 per cent., which is very unusual, his borrowing costs him only 1.9 per cent. No sane person would arrange such a thing if he was starting from scratch.

We have arrived at that position only due to habit, not looking at what we are doing, and a conceptual error. The conceptual error has always been that payment of interest has been defined in In-lard Revenue as an outgoing and not as an allowance; it has been treated as an expense necessarily encountered in acquiring the income in question, which it certainly is not. Therefore it is right that the total amount of income claimable against this relief should be limited, as is being done in this Finance Bill, and the total amount of relief in respect of that limited amount should also be limited.

I hope that in future the Government will be able to move over to a system in which all tax reliefs are expressed as deductions from the amount of tax payable, as compared with the present system in which tax relief is a deduction from the amount of income which is taxable. That would achieve the same objective as is proposed by the amendment. It would also apply to all of other allowances. As a result, a child allowance would be worth no more to the rich man than to the poor man so long as he paid tax at all. This would give some of the advantage of a tax credit scheme without the disadvantages of the scheme that the Conservative Party proposed.

Therefore, before the next principal Budget I hope that Treasury Ministers will look seriously at the principle behind the amendment. It should have been accepted long ago and it should be applied not only to relief on interest payments but to all other tax allowances and outgoings as well.

Mr. Richard Wainwright (Colne Valley)

In supporting the amendment, I should like to take up the underlying concept of the speech of the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham) and to explain how the amendment fits in with basic Liberal fiscal thinking—[Laughter.] Hon. Members may laugh, but their former colleague Lord Houghton, who used to be the Member for Sowerby, and who I believe enjoys a great deal of respect on their benches, commended the most recent Liberal tax document as the most advanced fiscal thinking he had come across.

In our view, there is only one circumstance in which interest should be allowed against income for tax purposes. I think that we engage the sympathy of some hon. Members opposite in saying that over the years the provision of relief on interest charged to a taxpayer has been far too expensive and has been grossly abused by surtax payers.

Mr. Tomlinson

We have been saying that for years.

Mr. Wainwright

So have we, and I am saying it now.

In our view, the only interest allowable against tax is interest which can be shown to be related to income which will be taxed. In other words, where a taxpayer has entered into a bargain to borrow money in order to invest, it is surely clear that before he is taxed on the proceeds of his investment annually, he should be allowed to set off the cost of the funds he has invested. To allow interest, as Governments of both parties have regrettably done for many years, on money borrowed for all kinds of personal enjoyment and living purposes is inexcusable. There is no reason why interest on that kind of borrowing or borrowing to indulge in the sort of facilities that the banks have been so mistakenly advertising in this time of inflation, should have been allowed against tax. We have supported many of the attempts of Labour Members to bring that under control. Hence, the amendment seeks to limit the extent to which higher taxpayers can avail themselves of that facility.

We recognise that we cannot hope, nor would it be fair, to achieve in a year or two the ultimate in Liberal tax designs, because many people have entered into bargains and arrangements on the strength of a well-established though mistaken fiscal philosophy. But the amendment signals the fact that we have no sympathy with surtax and investment surcharge payers who indulge in widespread borrowing. We seek to limit this relief as far as possible and as soon as possible to borrowings which give rise to investments which are a source of taxable income, and to them alone.

Mr. Brian Sedgemore (Luton, West)

It has been pleasant to hear the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) in one of his egalitarian flushes, because he blows hot and cold in these matters. We both spent 70 hours in Committee on the Finance Bill. He was once one of those who pressed vigorously to raise the £25,000 limit every six months in accordance with the rise in the retail price index, even if the cost of housing fell. He put it forward as one of his magnificent examples of indexing which was designed to prevent the redistribution of income. I am glad that he has put forward this proposal, which is designed to ensure the redistribution of income.

The Financial Secretary's reply, with great respect, was wholly unsatisfactory. A number of us on the Government side of the House would like the Financial Secretary to accept the principle behind the amendment, even though we realise that there are certain administrative difficulties and, as one would expect with a Liberal amendment, it would cause administrative chaos. However, the reply was not good enough.

In all that I have read of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I have come to the conclusion that on this problem he is concerned about excessive relief of this type. I am sure that he does not cry for people who earn over £6,000 a year and that his heart does not bleed for people who buy houses and who have a thumping great investment income. If the Financial Secretary is to keep us out of the Division Lobby, assuming that the amendment is pressed, we need a statement from him that he will accept this proposal in principle, if not in the October Budget certainly in the Budget next April.

Dr. Gilbert

I think that I made it clear in my earlier remarks that I thought that the principle put forward by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) was attractive. I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) and my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham) had to say on this subject. This is a very complex matter, involving the whole question of getting equity into the supply of housing finance and subsidies, both as between the private sector and the rented local authority sector.

My hon. Friends are well aware that we on the Government side of the House have long felt that the scales were weighted very heavily in favour of those who are fortunate enough to be able to buy their property on a mortgage with the benefit of tax relief, to say nothing of the absence of the old Schedule A arrangements, the availability of grants and the freedom from capital gains tax for owner-occupiers. There is a whole array of assistance available to the owner-occupier, which we have certainly taken into account. I will say to my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, West that we have gone quite a long way already. We are by no means at the end of the road in this matter, and we should be happy—in fact, we intend—to look at this whole question again in the time horizon specified by my hon. Friend.

One could certainly construct a very attractive scenario in which all interest relief was withdrawn and the money was used to bring down the cost of mortgage finance to everyone who is buying a house on a mortgage so that the relief would go to everyone, regardless of income—given the present constraints, which we would not dream of abandoning, the size of the mortgage and the fact that it should go only for someone's main and only residence. I assure my hon. Friend that those are all possibilities and are being considered. I hope that he will take it from me that we are considering them. Obviously I cannot give him a commitment.

He is absolutely right that the results of the amendment, though attractive in principle—as I said to the hon. Member for Cornwall, North in my initial remarks—would lead to administrative difficulties. It is for that reason that I am afraid that I am unable to commend the amendment to my hon. Friends.

Mr. Pardoe

With your leave. Mr. Speaker, I should like briefly to reply to what the Financial Secretary has said. He said that he had stated in his opening remarks that he found this amendment attractive. Actually, he was unable coming from the Liberal Party. That to restrain himself from saying that he found it "superficially" attractive, and he made some snide comment about it was the reason for that remark.

The Financial Secretary has not set out any specific reasons why the principle cannot be accepted or, indeed, why the amendment cannot be accepted. Inevitably, any Treasury Minister will say that it is impossible to administer. I do not believe that. If the interest is paid by

the mortgagor gross, it is perfectly simple. He has to claim back the relief, and he claims it back at the basic rate. If the interest is paid net, it can be deducted only at the basic rate. It is as simple as that. It does not take a Treasury team of complicated accountants and mathematicians to work that out.

10.0 p.m.

The hon. Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) was right in saying that this is a redistributive and egalitarian amendment and that I supported—indeed, advanced—an amendment to index-link the £25,000. However, he gave the game away by saying that inflation is redistributive. Some of us believe that that is why the Labour Party likes inflation a darned sight too much. If I wanted to be egalitarian and to redistribute income it should be done by the proper methods, openly and above board through Acts of Parliament and not by stealth by letting the inflation rate rip.

For these reasons, my hon. Friends and I, notwithstanding what the Financial Secretary said—he did not advance substantial reasons—intend to press this very necessary amendment to a Division.

Question put, That the amendment be made:

The House divided:Ayes 24, Noes 274.

Division No. 88.] AYES [10.1 p.m.
Beith, A. J. Mudd, David Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Freud, Clement Normanton, Tom Tyler, Paul
Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. Redmond, Robert Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Henderson, Douglas (Ab'rd'nsh're.E) Reid, George Watt, Hamish
Hooson, Emlyn Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Wilson, Gordon (Dundee, E.)
Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Steel, David TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Kilfedder, James A. Stewart, Donald (Western Isles) Mr. John Pardoe and
MacCormick, Iain Taverne, Dick Dr. Michael Winstanley.
Mayhew, Christopher(G'wh, W'wch, E)
NOES
Abse, Leo Bradley, Tom Conlan, Bernard
Allaun, Frank Broughton, Sir Alfred Cook, Robert F. (Edinburgh, C.)
Armstrong, Ernest Brown, Bob (Newcastle upon Tyne, W.) Cox, Thomas
Atkinson, Norman Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan) Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, Maryhill)
Bagier, Gordon, A. T. Buchan, Norman Cronin, John
Barnett, Joel (Heywood & Royton) Butler, Mrs. Joyce (H'gey, WoodGreen) Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Bates, Alf Callaghan, Jim (M'dd'ton & Pr'wch) Cryer, G. R.
Baxter, William Campbell, Ian Cunningham, G.(Isl'ngt'n, S & F'sb'ry)
Bennett, Andrew F. (Stockport, N.) Cant, R. B. Cunningham, Dr. John A. (Whiteh'v'n)
Bidwell, Sydney Carmichael, Neil Dalyell, Tam
Bishop, E. S. Carter, Ray Davidson, Arthur
Blenkinsop, Arthur Carter-Jones, Lewis Davies, Bryan (Enfield, N.)
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.) Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)
Booth, Albert Cocks, Michael Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Cohen, Stanley Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Botlomley, Rt. Hon. Arthur Coleman, Donald Deakins, Eric
Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) Colquhoun, Mrs. M. N. Dean, Joseph (Leeds, W.)
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Phipps, Dr. Colin
Delargy, Hugh Judd, Frank Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Kaufman, Gerald Prescott, John
Dempsey, James Kelley, Richard Price, Christopher (Lewisham, w.)
Doig, Peter Kerr, Russell Price, William (Rugby)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce Kilroy-Silk, Robert Radice, Giles
Duffy, A. E. P. Kinnock, Neil Rees, Rt. Hn. Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Dunn, James A. Lambie, David Richardson, Miss Jo
Dunnett, Jack Lamborn, Harry Rifkind, Malcolm
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth Lamond, James Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Eadie, Alex Lamont, Norman Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Edelman, Maurice Lawson, George (Motherwell & Wishaw) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Edge, Geoff Leadbitter, Ted Roderick, Caerwyn E.
Edwards, Robert (W'hampton, S.E.) Lee, John Rodgers, George (Chorley)
Ellis, John (Brigg & Scunthorpe) Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Rodgers, William (Teesslde, St'ckton)
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Lewis, Arthur (Newham, N.) Rooker, J. W.
English, Michael Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Roper, John
Ennals, David Lipton, Marcus Rose, Paul B.
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Loughlin, Charles Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Loyden, Eddie Rowlands, Edward
Evans, John (Newton) Lyons, Edward (Bradford, W.) Sandelson, Neville
Ewing, Harry (St'ling, F'kirk & G'm'th) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Selby, Harry
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. McCartney, Hugh Shaw, Arnold (Redbridge, Ilford, S.)
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) McElhone, Frank Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)
Flannery, Martin MacFarquhar, Roderick Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) MacGregor, John Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter(S'pney & P'plar)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) McGuire, Michael Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'ctle-u-Tyne)
Foot, Rt. Hn. Michael Mackenzie, Gregor Short, Mrs. Ren& ée (W'hamp'n, N.E.)
Ford, Ben Maclennan, Robert Sillars, James
Forrester, John Macmillan, Rt. Hn. M. (Farnham) Silverman, Julius
Fowler, Gerry (The Wrekin) McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Small, William
Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) McNamara, Kevin Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Freeson, Reginald Madden, M. O. F. Snape, Peter
Galpern, Sir Myer Magee, Bryan Spearing, Nigel
Garrett, John (Norwich, S.) Mahon, Simon Spriggs, Leslie
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Mallalieu, J. P. W. Stallard, A. W.
George, Bruce Marks, Kenneth Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Gilbert, Dr. John Marquand, David Stewart, Rt. Hn. M. (H'sth, Fulh'm)
Ginsburg, David Marshall, Dr. Edmund (Goole) Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Golding, John Marlen, Neil Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Gourlay, Harry Meacher, Michael Stott, Roger
Graham, Ted Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Strang, Gavin
Grant, George (Morpeth) Mendelson, John Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Grant, John (Islington, C.) Mikardo, Ian Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Griffiths, Eddie (Sheffield, Brightside) Millan, Bruce Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Hamilton, William (Fife, C.) Miller, Dr. M. S. (E. Kilbride) Tierney, Sydney
Hamling, William Mills, Peter Tinn, James
Hardy, Peter Milne, Edward Tomlinson, John
Harper, Joseph Miscampbell, Norman Tomney, Frank
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) Torney, Tom
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Molloy, William Tuck, Raphael
Hatton, Frank Moonman, Eric Urwin, T. W.
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Varley, Rt. Hn. Eric G.
Heffer, Eric S. Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Hooley, Frank Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Horam, John Moyle, Roland Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Howell, Denis (B'ham, Small Heath) Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick Weitzman, David
Huckfield, Leslie Newens, Stanley (Harlow) Wellbeloved, James
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Nott, John White, Jamas
Hughes, Mark (Durham) Oakes, Gordon Whitehead, Phillip
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, North) Ogden, Eric Whitlock, William
Hughes, Roy (Newport) O'Halloran, Michael Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Hunter, Adam O'Malley, Brian Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Hutchison, Michael Clark Onslow, Cranley Williams, Rt. Hn. Shirley(H'f'd & St'ge)
Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (L'p'I, EdgeHI) Orbacll, Maurice Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
Irving, Rt. Hn. Sydney (Dartford) Ovenden, John Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Jackson, Colin Owen, Dr. David Wilson, William (Coventry, S.E.)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Padley, Walter Woodall, Alee
Jeger, Mrs. Lena Palmer, Arthur Woof, Robert
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (B'ham, St'fd) Park, George (Coventry, N.E.) Wrigglesworth, Ian
John, Brynmor Parker, John (Dagenham) Young, David (Bolton, E.)
Johnson, James (K'ston uponHull, W) Parry, Robert
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) Pavitt, Laurie TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred Mr. J. D. Dormand and
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Pendry, Tom Mr. James Hamilton
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) Perry, Ernest G.

Question accordingly negatived.

Dr. Gilbert

I beg to move Amendment No. 11, in page 9, line 56, leave out subsection (4) and insert— '(4) Interest is excepted from subsection (3) above if it is payable on a debt incudred on or before 26th March 1974 or on a debt replacing one so incurred and—

  1. (a) where it is payable on an overdraft, it is payable before 6th April 1975; and
  2. (b) where it is not payable on an overdraft but on a debt replacing an overdraft, the overdraft was replaced (either by the debt on which the interest is payable or by another debt which was not an overdraft) before 6th April 1975 and the interest is payable before 6th April 1980; and
  3. (c) in any other case the interest is payable before 6th April 1980;
but where the interest is payable on an overdraft or on a debt replacing an overdraft it shall be eligible for relief to the extent only that it or, as the case may be, the amount on which it is payable, does not exceed the limit imposed by subsection (5) below.'

Mr. Speaker

With this amendment we may also consider the following amendments to Amendment No. 11:

Amendment (a), in subsection (4)(a) leave out '1975' and insert '1976'.

Amendment (b), in subsection (4)(b) leave out '1975' and insert '1976'.

Amendment (c), in subsection (4)(b) leave out '1980' and insert '1984'.

Amendment (d), in subsection (4)(c) leave out '1980' and insert '1984'.

It may also be convenient to consider the following amendments:

No. 81, in page 10, line 2, leave out 'and paid before 6th April 1975' and insert 'before 6th April 1976'.

No. 82, in page 10, line 6, leave out '1980' and insert '1984'.

No. 12, in page 10, line 16, leave out from balance' to end of line 20 and insert: on 26th March 1974 of the overdrawn account and at the rate at which interest on that balance was chargeable on 26th March 1974 and the limit on the amount interest payable on which is excepted by paragraph (b) of that subsection is that debit balance.

(6) For the purposes of this section—

  1. (a) a debt replaces another if it is incurred for the purpose of discharging that other debt or a debt replacing it; and
  2. (b) a debt incurred by overdrawing an account which had a debit balance on 26th March 1974 shall be treated as incurred on or before that date; and
    3. 588
  3. (c) a debt incurred by debiting the account of a person as the holder of a credit card or under similar arrangements shall be treated as incurred by overdrawing that account and "overdraft" shall be construed accordingly.'

No. 13, in page 10, line 28, leave out 'in writing'.

No. 14, in page 10, line 29, at end insert: 'and that the offer either was in writing or was evidenced by a note or memorandum made by the lender on or before that date.'

No. 15, in page 10, line 30, leave out 'the obligation to pay the interest' and insert 'the debt on which the interest is payable

No. 23, in Schedule 1, page 42, line 9. at end insert: 'and the relief referred to in the words so substituted in paragraph 1(c) of that Schedule shall include any relief by virtue of section 15(4) of this Act'.

No. 33, in page 44, line 52, at end insert: '(2) The relief referred to in sub-paragraph (1)(c) above includes any relief by virtue of section 15(4) of this Act'.

No. 34, in page 45, line 23, at the end insert: '(2) The relief referred to in sub-paragraph (1)(c) above includes any relief by virtue of section 15(4) of this Act'.

No. 35, in page 46, line 42, at end insert: '(2) The reference in sub-paragraph (1)(b) above to relief by virtue of this paragraph shall be construed as including any relief by virtue of section 15(4) of this Act'.

No. 36, in page 48, line 10, at end insert: 'at the rate at which interest on that balance was chargeable on 26th March 1974'.

No. 37, in page 48, line 11, leave out paragraph (c) and insert: '(c) so much of the interest paid in the year of assessment for which the claim is made as was payable after 26th March 1974 and before 6th April 1975'.

Dr. Gilbert

Many amendments have been grouped together, but I shall unfortunately have to refer to several groups separately. I shall keep my remarks as brief as possible, and I hope I shall be acquitted of any discourtesy to the House on that account.

First, I shall deal with Amendments Nos. 11, 12 and 15, which are Government amendments. They make important changes in the provision of transitional relief for interest on money borrowed before Budget Day. They meet completely the undertaking I gave in Standing Committee to allow relief to continue where a pre-Budget loan or overdraft is paid off by means of further borrowing within the transitional period. They also contain a further important transitional concession about overdraft interest.

The amendments have three purposes. First, in relation to the one-year relief for overdraft interest, the requirement that the interest should be both payable and paid before 6th April 1975 has been dropped. This was the subject of considerable discussion in Standing Committee and I hope this will commend itself to the House.

Secondly, the amendments honour my undertaking to provide transitional relief where a pre-Budget overdraft or loan for a non-qualifying purpose is replaced within the transitional period—

Mr. Speaker

Order. There are too many conversations going on.

Dr. Gilbert

The relief accords with amendments proposed in Committee by the hon. Members for Worthing (Mr. Higgins), Croydon, South (Mr. Clark) and Ludlow (Mr. More).

Finally, the amendments contain one new concession. We have decided that it would be right to allow someone who has borrowed on overdraft before Budget Day to finance non-qualifying expenditure, to convert the overdraft into another form of loan and so obtain the benefit of transitional relief for six years instead of one year.

10.15 p.m.

The overdraft reliefs must meet three conditions. First, the interest must itself qualify for relief. Secondly, the conversion must be effected before 6th April next year, when the transitional relief runs out. Thirdly, the amount of the conversion is limited to the debit balance on Budget Day.

The effect of this concession is to avoid an arbitrary difference between people who happen to have borrowed for similar purposes in different ways before Budget Day.

Mr. Higgins

Am I correct in understanding that that is only in the case of qualifying purposes?

Dr. Gilbert

That is not so. It is to cover all borrowings before Budget Day

I turn to the amendments rather whimsically entitled on my selection sheet "Mr. Carr's Amendments". I should like to group Amendment No. 81 with sub-amendments (a) and (b), which tide together, and Amendment No. 82 with sub-amendments (c) and (d), which ride together.

Amendment No. 81 would extend from one year to two the period of transitional relief for interest on overdrafts and similar arrangements. While the concession have just announced does not exactly parallel that proposal, I hope the Opposition will agree that the net effect is rather more satisfactory to their purpose, and that they will accept the Government amendments in substitution for theirs in that group.

Mr. Higgins

I am sorry to intervene again, but the points being made are very technical, and I am limited in the number of times on which I can intervene to clarify them. The hon. Gentleman suggests that his amendment covers the points we make in our groups of amendments.

Dr. Gilbert

Not entirely.

Mr. Higgins

If it does not cover them entirely, there is still a case for pressing our amendments. Can the hon. Gentleman spell out in what respects the Government amendment does not cover our amendments?

Dr. Gilbert

The effect is to give greater transitional relief beyond one year to six years for non-qualifying expenditure. What we are not giving is an option beyond one year for the period within which one can convert a loan into an overdraft for qualifying purposes. The relief will run for six years if one converts within 12 months under our proposals, which I hope the Opposition will accept as a not ungenerous concession to make at this stage.

Mr. Higgins

Am I right in saying that one has to convert if it is an overdraft for a non-qualifying purpose? I understand that under the Government's proposals, unlike our amendment, relief will not be given for the overdraft up to the highest minimum balance on the due date for the next year. If I have not made that clear, perhaps I may put it in this way. Am I right in thinking that under the hon. Gentleman's proposals relief for someone who simply has a non-qualifying overdraft on Budget Day will cease on the date originally proposed by the Chancellor if it is not converted? If that is so, the Government amendments do not fully cover the point of our amendment. No doubt if the hon. Gentleman covers our amendment as well the entire spectrum will be covered.

Dr. Gilbert

The hon. Gentleman has understood the situation correctly. We are not proposing an additional transitional period with respect to the conversion facility: we think one year to be a perfectly reasonable period within which someone can convert an overdraft to a loan form of borrowing.

What we are saying is that when the conversion is taking place, regardless of the purposes for which the money was borrowed in the first place, relief shall be available for a six-year period. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that as a not ungenerous concession by the Government.

Now I turn to the Opposition Amendments Nos. 82 and (c) and (d), which have the effect of extending by a further four years a different form of transitional relief, namely, the period allowed under the Bill for interest on loans other than overdrafts and so on which were taken out before Budget Day, and which would not otherwise be eligible for relief under the new rule as having been spent for a qualifying purpose. In our view a 10-year transitional period is unnecessarily generous.

We have, as Members who were present during the Standing Committee will recall, followed a period of six years on the same principle as was followed in 1969 when interest relief was withdrawn at that time by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the present Home Secretary. I do not seek to detain the House by arguing the point at great length. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen will agree that it is merely an exercise in line-drawing. One reasonable man can disagree with another about where to draw the line. In our view six years is a perfectly reasonable and generous period, while 10 years goes too far.

Amendments Nos. 13 and 14 honour an undertaking which I gave in Standing Committe to my hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Evans). He moved Amendment No. 278 which was designed to widen the situation in which a loan made after Budget Day for house purchase or improvement was treated as having been made before that date, thus attracting the benefit of the transitional relief. As drafted subsection (6) of Clause 15 required the taxpayer to provide firm evidence that he had committed himself contractually to the expenditure in question and that he had done so on a firm basis of an offer from the lender to provide money. The amendment in Standing Committe sought to relax this condition by allowing the evidence to take the form of a memorandum or note that an offer had been made by the lender. Our amendment closely follows the wording of my hon. Friend's amendment. Unfortunately it has had to be rather longer—that is often the nature of these things. It makes clear that where evidence of an offer of loan takes this alternative form, the note or memorandum must be one made by the lender—this is the important point—not by the borrower, and must be before Budget Day. I hope that the House accepts that this meets the intention of the amendment put forward by my hon. Friend and that our drafting is reasonable.

The sole purpose of Amendment No. 23 is for clarification. Where someone has borrowed money on overdraft on or before Budget Day for purchase or improvement of land or property within the new qualifying rules the amendment makes clear that if the overdraft is converted to another form of loan before 6th April 1975 interest on the new loan will be eligible for relief as if it were incurred for qualifying purposes. Even without this amendment the Bill could be interpreted as allowing relief in the circumstances, but the amendment makes the position doubly clear.

Amendment No. 33 has the same basic purpose as Amendment No. 23. It removes any doubt that a loan taken out to repay an overdraft used by executors to pay estate duty before probate, is eligible for relief provided the overdraft is repaid before 6th April 1975.

Amendment No. 34 has the same intention with respect to a loan taken out to repay an overdraft used to acquire an interest in a partnership.

Similarly, Amendment No. 35 removes doubt that a loan taken out to repay an overdraft used to acquire interest in a close company will qualify on the same terms.

Amendments Nos. 36 and 37 are consequential on earlier Government amendments affecting the form of the transitional relief for interest on overdrafts and loans which replace them. The amendments adapt the information required for bank and other certificates of interest paid to the new requirements for relief.

The amendments are self-explanatory, but if any hon. Gentlemen prefer me to go into detail I should be happy to do so, I apologise for speaking at such length, but I have had to deal with a number of amendments in one group and I hope I have given the House sufficient information.

Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill, put and negatived.

Question proposed, That the proposed words be there inserted in the Bill.

Mr. Higgins

I beg to move as an amendment to the proposed amendment, in subsection (4)(a), leave out '1975' and insert '1976'.

Mr. Speaker

With this we can discuss Amendments (b) and (c) and (d).

Mr. Higgins

The House will be grateful to the Financial Secretary for his explanation. We appreciate that it was necessarily lengthy because these are technical matters. What we have sought to do in debating these amendments in Committee and again this evening is to ensure that the basic framework relating to the allowance or disallowance of interest for income tax purposes is as sensible as it can be made.

We are also anxious that the transitional arrangements should be such that hardship is not incurred by any individual or group. We may reasonbly claim that as a result of our debates in Committee we have made reasonable progress. I thank the Financial Secretary for the undertakings which he then gave and the extent to which these amendments to which he has been speaking fulfil those undertakings.

There are two outstanding matters which I ought to press upon him and to which our amendments are directed. Essentially it is a question of the transitional arrangements. There are two points. The first concerns how long interest should be allowed on an overdraft which is not for a qualifying purpose. The second point relates to the question of for how long arrangements should be allowed to continue with the allowance of interest for income tax purposes on loans which are not for a qualifying purpose.

In the first category the Government originally suggested that overdrafts should qualify only until 6th April 1975. That is the date which still appears in the Government's amendment. Similarly, for the second category the original date was 1980. In both respects we do not believe that the time limit allowed for adjustment is sufficient. I will not weary the House with the reasons which we put forward in Committee in detail.

On the first point our feeling is that if someone has an overdraft at Budget Day which is not for a qualifying purpose then to say that he should not be allowed interest beyond a year from that date is to allow inadequate time. We therefore suggest that a further year should be allowed.

Similarly with loans, we suggest that, because many of these are not infrequently backed up by insurance policies running for a set period of years, 10, 15 or 20, an extension of the date from 1980 to 1984 would be appropriate. I understand, with regard to the overdraft point, that provided a person converts that overdraft into a loan the position will be covered for the longer of the two periods; that is until 1980.

None the less, it means that the overdraft for the non-qualifying period has to be converted. That seems to raise certain difficulties. There may be problems in converting. It may not be possible to operate at such a low rate on a loan as on an overdraft. Therefore, although we are grateful for the concession that the Financial Secretary has made, we still feel that with the simple overdraft it is not going too far—because this is essentially a transitional problem and the cost cannot be very great—to say that the period ought to be two years rather than one.

I suggest that if the Financial Secretary is not prepared to accept this we should press the amendment to a Division. There is a problem with the longer-term loan. We think it would be right to have a reasonably generous limit—1984 rather than 1980. I hope that the Financial Secretary can oblige. If not I must advise my hon. and right hon. Friends to press that matter to a Division.

10.30 p.m.

Dr. Gilbert

I have listened to the hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins). I recognise the time difficulties under which he is labouring, as I am. This is an exchange of assertions rather than reasoned argument. The hon. Gentleman thinks that a one-year limit for a conversion and a six-year limit for non-qualifying loans is not adequate. We think that those periods are adequate and generous. There is a clear division of opinion which will have to be put to the vote. I must advise my hon. Friends to resist the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment to the proposed amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 270, Noes 289.

Division No. 89.] AYES [10.31 p.m.
Adley, Robert Crowder, F. P. Hannam, John
Aitken, Jonathan Davies, Rt. John (Knutsford) Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) d' Avigdor-GoIdsmid, Maj. -Gen. James Harvie Anderson, Rt. Hn. Miss
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Hastings, Stephen
Ancram, M. Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. Havers, Sir Michael
Archer, Jeffrey Dixon, Piers Hawkins, Paul
Atkins, Rt. Hn. Humphrey (Spelthorne) Dodds-Parker, Sir Douglas Hayhoe, Barney
Awdry, Daniel Dodsworth, Geoffrey Henderson, J. S.B.(Dunbartonshire, E)
Baker, Kenneth Drayson, Burnaby Heseltine, Michael
Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Higgins, Terence
Banks, Robert Durant, Tony Holland, Philip
Bell, Ronald Dykes, Hugh Hordern, Peter
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John Howe, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Surrey, E.)
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Fareham) Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Howell, David (Guildford)
Benyon, W. Elliott, Sir William Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, North)
Biffen, John Emery, Peter Hunt, John
Biggs-Davison, John Eyre, Reginald Hurd, Douglas
Blaker, Peter Fairgrieve, Russell Hutchison, Michael Clark
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.) Farr, John Iremonger, T. L.
Body, Richard Fell, Anthony Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)
Boscawen, Hon. Robert Fenner, Mrs. Peggy James, David
Bowden, Andrew (Brighton, Kemptown) Fidler, Michael Jenkin, Rt. Hn. P. (R'dge W'std & W'fd)
Boyson, Dr. Rhodes (Brent, N.) Finsberg, Geoffrey Jessel, Toby
Braine, Sir Bernard Fisher, Sir Nigel Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Bray, Ronald Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh, N.) Jones, Arthur (Daventry)
Brittan, John Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Jopling, Michael
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Fookes, Miss Janet Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'field) Kaberry, Sir Donald
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Fox, Marcus Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine
Bryan, Sir Paul Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) Kershaw, Anthony
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Fry, Peter Kilfedder, James A.
Buck, Antony Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D. Kimball, Marcus
Budgen, Nick Gardiner, George (Reigate & Banstead) King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Bulmer, Esmond Gardner, Edward (S. Fylde) King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Burden, F. A. Gibson-Watt, Rt. Hn. David Kirk, Peter
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Kitson, Sir Timothy
Carlisle, Mark Glyn, Dr. Alan Knight, Mrs. Jill
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Goodhart, Philip Knox, David
Carson, John Goodhew, Victor Lemont, Norman
Chalker, Mrs. Lynda Goodlad, A. Lane, David
Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher Gorst, John Latham, Michael (Melton)
Churchill, W. S. Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Lawrence, Ivan
Clark, William (Croydon, S.) Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Lawson, Nigel (Blaby)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Clegg, Walter Gray, Hamish Lewis, Kenneth (Rtland & Stmford)
Cockcroft, John Grieve, Percy Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo)
Cooke, Robert (Bristol, W.) Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Loveridge, John
Cope, John Grist, Ian Luce, Richard
Cordle, John Grylls, Michael McAdden, Sir Stephen
Cormack, Patrick Gurden, Harold MacArthur, Ian
Corrie, John Hall, Sir John McCrindle, R. A.
Costain, A. P. Hall-Davis, A. G. F. McCusker, H.
Critchley, Julian Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Macfarlane, Neil
Crouch, David Hampson, Dr. Keith MacGregor, John
McLaren, Martin Pattle, Geoffrey Stainton, Keith
Macmillan, Rt. Hn. M. (Farnham) Percival, Ian Stanbrook, Ivor
McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury) Peyton, Rt. Hn. John Stanley, John
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) Pink, R. Bonner Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Madel, David Price, David (Eastleigh) Stodart, Rt. Hn. A. (Edinburgh, W.)
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Prior, Rt. Hn. James Stokes, John
Mather, Carol Raison, Timothy Stradling Thomas, John
Maude, Angus Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter Tapsell, Peter
Mawby, Ray Redmond, Robert Taylor, Edward M. (Glgow, C'cart)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Mayhew, Patrick (Royal T' bridge Wells) Pees-Davies, W. R. Tebbit, Norman
Meyer, Sir Anthony Renton, R. T. (Mid-Sussex) Temple-Morris, Peter
Miller, Hal (B'grove & R'ditch) Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Margaret
Mills, Peter Ridsdale, Julian Thomas, Rt. Hn. P. (B'net, H'den S.)
Miscampbell, Norman Rifkind, Malcolm Townsend, C. D.
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey Trotter, Neville
Moate, Roger Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.-W.) Tugendhat, Christopher
Molyneaux, James Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Monro, Hector Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Viggers, Peter
Moore, J. E. M. (Croydon, C.) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) Waddington, David
Morgan, Geraint Rost, Peter (Derbyshire, S.-E.) Wakeham, John
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Royle, Sir Anthony Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Morris, Mitchell (Northampton, S.) Sainsbury, Tim Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Scott-Hopkins, James Wall, Patrick
Morrison, Peter (City of Chester) Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) Walters, Dennis
Mudd, David Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) Warren, Kenneth
Neave, Airey Shelton, William (L'mb'th, Streath'm) Weatherill, Bernard
Neubert, Michael Shersby, Michael Wells, John
Newton, Tony (Braintree) Silvester, Fred Wiggin, Jerry
Nicholls, Sir Harmar Sims, Roger Winterton, Nicholas
Normanton, Tom Sinclair, Sir George Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Nott, John Skeet, T. H. H. Worsley, Sir Marcus
Onslow, Cranley Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) Young, Sir George (Ealing, Acton)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Spence, John
Osborn, John Spicer, Jim (Dorset, W.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby) Spicer, Michael (Worcestershire, S.) Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and
Page, John (Harrow, W.) Sproat, Iain Mr. Cecil Parkinson.
NOES
Abse, Leo Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Freud, Clement
Allaun, Frank Cryer, G. R. Galpern, Sir Myer
Armstrong, Ernest Cunningham, G.(Isl'ngt'n, S & F'sb'ry) Garrett, John (Norwich, S.)
Ashton, Joe Cunningham, Dr. John A. (Whiteh 'v' n) Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)
Atkins, Ronald Davidson, Arthur George, Bruce
Atkinson, Norman Davies, Bryan (Enfield, N.) Gilbert, Dr. John
Bagier, Gordon, A. T. Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) Ginsburg, David
Barnett, Joel (Heywood & Royton) Davies, Ifor (Gower) Gourlay, Harry
Bates, Alf Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Graham, Ted
Baxter, William Deakins, Eric Grant, George (Morpeth)
Beith, A. J. Dean, Joseph (Leeds, W.) Grant, John (Islington, C.)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Griffiths, Eddie (Sheffield, Brightside)
Bennett, Andrew F. (Stockport, N.) Delargy, Hugh Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.
Bidwell, Sydney Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Bishop, E. S. Dempsey, James Hamilton, William (Fife, C.)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Doig, Peter Hamling, William
Boardman, H. Dormand, J. D. Hardy, Peter
Booth, Albert Douglas-Mann, Bruce Harper, Joseph
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Duffy, A. E. P. Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. Arthur Dunn, James A. Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) Dunnett, Jack Hatton, Frank
Bradley, Tom Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Broughton, Sir Alfred Eadie, Alex Heffer, Eric S.
Brown, Bob (Newcastle upon Tyne, W.) Edelman, Maurice Hooley, Frank
Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan) Edge, Geoff Hooson, Emlyn
Brown, Ronald (H'kney, S. & Sh'ditch) Edwards, Robert (W'hampton, S.E.) Horam, John
Buchan, Norman Ellis, John (Brigg & Scunthorpe) Howell, Denis (B'ham, Small Health)
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (H'gey, WoodGreen) Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)
Callaghan, Jim (M'dd'ton & Pr'wch) English, Michael Huckfield, Leslie
Campbell, Ian Ennals, David Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Cant, R. B. Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Carmichael, Neil Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, North)
Carter, Ray Evans, John (Newton) Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Ewing, Harry (St'ling, F'kirk & G'm'th) Hunter, Adam
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (L'p'I, EdgeHI)
Clemitson, Ivor Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Irving, Rt. Hn. Sydney (Dartford)
Cocks, Michael Flannery, Martin Jackson, Colin
Cohen, Stanley Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Janner, Greville
Coleman, Donald Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Colquhoun, Mrs. M. N. Foot, Rt. Hn. Michael Jeger, Mrs. Lena
Conlan, Bernard Ford, Ben Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (B'ham, St'fd)
Cook, Robert F. (Edinburgh, C.) Forrester, John John, Brynmor
Cox, Thomas Fowler, Gerry (The Wrekin) Johnson, James (K'ston upon Hull, W)
Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, Maryhill) Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Cronin, John Freeson, Reginald Johnston, Russell (Inverness)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Newens, Stanley (Harlow) Spearing, Nigel
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Oakes, Gordon Spriggs, Leslie
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) Ogden, Eric Stallard, A. W.
Jones, Alec (Rhondda) O'Halloran, Michael Steel, David
Judd, Frank O'Malley, Brian Stewart, Rt. Hn. M. (H'eth, Fulh'm)
Kaufman, Gerald Orbach, Maurice Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Kelley, Richard Ovenden, John Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Kerr, Russell Owen, Dr. David Stott, Roger
Kilroy-Silk, Robert Padley, Walter Strang, Gavin
Kinnock, Neil Palmer, Arthur Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Lambie, David Pardoe, John Summerskill, Rt. Hn. Shirley
Lamborn, Harry Park, George (Coventry, N.E.) Swain, Thomas
Lamond, James Parker, John (Dagenham) Taverne, Dick
Lawson, George (Motherwell & Wishaw) Parry, Robert Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Leadbitter, Ted Pavitt, Laurie Thorne, Stan (Preston, S.)
Lee, John Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Perry, Ernest G. Tierney, Sydney
Lewis, Arthur (Newham, N.) Phipps, Dr. Colin Tinn, James
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. Tomlinson, John
Lipton, Marcus Prescott, John Tomney, Frank
Loughlin, Charles Price, Christopher (Lewisham, W.) Torney, Tom
Loyden, Eddie Price, William (Rugby) Tuck, Raphael
Lyons, Edward (Bradford, W.) Radice, Giles Tyler, Paul
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Rees, Rt. Hn. Merlyn (Leeds, S.) Urwin, T. W.
McCartney, Hugh Reid, George Varley, Rt. Hn. Eric G.
McElhone, Frank Richardson, Miss Jo Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
MacFarquhar, Roderick Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
McGuire, Michael Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Mackenzie, Gregor Robertson, John (Paisley) Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Maclennan, Robert Roderick, Caerwyn E. Watt, Hamish
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Rodgers, George (Chorley) Weitzman, David
McNamara, Kevin Rodgers, William (Teesside, St'ckton) Wellbeloved, James
Madden, M. O. F. Rooker, J. W. White, James
Magee, Bryan Roper, John Whitehead, Phillip
Mahon, Simon Rose, Paul B. Whitlock, William
Mallalieu, J. P. W. Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Marks, Kenneth Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Marquand, David Rowlands, Edward Williams, Alan Lee (Hvrng, Hchurch)
Marshall, Dr. Edmund (Goole) Sandelson, Neville Williams, Rt. Hn. Shirley(H 'f' d & St'ge)
Mayhew, Christopher (G'wh, W'wch, E) Sedgemore. Bryan Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
Meacher, Michael Selby, Harry Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Shaw, Arnold (Redbridge, Ilford, S.) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.E.)
Mikardo, Ian Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) Winstanley, Dr. Michael
Millan, Bruce Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter(S'pney & P'plar) Wise, Mrs. Audrey
Miller, Dr. M. S. (E. Kilbride) Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'ctle-U-Tyne) Woodall, Alec
Milne, Edward Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hamp'n, N.E.) Woof, Robert
Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) Sillars, James Wrigglesworth, Ian
Molloy, William Silverman, Julius Young, David (Bolton, E.)
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Skinner, Dennis
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Small, William TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) Mr. John Golding and
Moyle, Roland Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) Mr. Tom Pendry.
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick Snape, Peter

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed to the proposed amendment: Amendment (c), in subsection (4)(b), line 10, leave out '1980' and insert '1984'.—[Mr. Higgins.]

Question put, That the amendment to the proposed amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 273, Noes 289.

Division No. 90.] AYES [10.44 p.m.
Adley, Robert Body, Richard Carson, John
Aitken, Jonathan Boscawen, Hon. Robert Chalker, Mrs. Lynda
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Bowden, Andrew (Brighton, Kemptown) Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Boyson, Dr. Rhodes (Brent, N.) Churchill, W. S.
Ancram, M. Braine, Sir Bernard Clark, A. K. M. (Plymouth, Sutton)
Archer, Jeffrey Bray, Ronald Clark, William (Croydon, S.)
Atkins, Rt. Hn. Humphrey (Spelthorne) Brittan, Leon Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Awdry, Daniel Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Clegg, Walter
Baker, Kenneth Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Cockcroft, John
Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord Bruce-Gardyne, J. Cooke, Robert (Bristol, W.)
Banks, Robert Bryan, Sir Paul Cope, John
Bell, Ronald Buchanan-Smith, Alick Cordle, John
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) Buck, Antony Cormack, Patrick
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Fareham) Budgen, Nick Corrie, John
Benyon, W. Bulmer, Esmond Costain, A. P.
Biffen, John Burden, F. A. Critchley, Julian
Biggs-Davison, John Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Crouch, David
Blaker, Peter Carlisle, Mark Crowder, F. P.
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.) Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Price, David (Eastleigh)
Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Jones, Arthur (Daventry) Prior, Rt. Hn. James
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. Jopling, Michael Raison, Timothy
Dixon, Piers Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith Rathbone, Tim
Dodds-Parker, Sir Douglas Kaberry, Sir Donald Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Dodsworth, Geoffrey Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine Redmond, Robert
Drayson, Burnaby Kershaw, Anthony Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Kilfedder, James A. Rees-Davies, W. R,
Durant, Tony Kimball, Marcus Renton, R. T. (Mid-Sussex)
Dykes, Hugh King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John King, Tom (Bridgwater) Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Kirk, Peter Ridsdale, Julian
Elliott, Sir William Kitson, Sir Timothy Rifkind, Malcolm
Emery, Peter Knight, Mrs. Jill Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Eyre, Reginald Knox, David Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.-W.)
Fairgrieve, Russell Lamont, Norman Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Farr, John Lane, David Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Fell, Anthony Latham, Michael (Melton) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy Lawrence, Ivan Rost, Peter (Derbyshire, S.-E.)
Fidler, Michael Lawson, Nigel (Blaby) Royle, Sir Anthony
Finsberg, Geoffrey Lester, Jim (Beeston) Sainsbury, Tim
Fisher, Sir Nigel Lewis, Kenneth (Rtland & Stmford) Scott-Hopkins, James
Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh, N.) Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo) Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Loveridge, John Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)
Fookes, Miss Janet Luce, Richard Shelton, Willam (L'mb'th, Streath'm)
Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'field) McAdden, Sir Stephen Shersby, Michael
Fox, Marcus MacArthur, Ian Silvester, Fred
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) McCrindle, R. A. Sims, Roger
Fry, Peter McCusker, H. Sinclair, Sir George
Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D. Macfarlane, Neil Skeet, T. H. H.
Gardiner, George (Reigate & Banstead) MacGregor, John Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Gardner, Edward (S. Fylde) McLaren, Martin Spence, John
Gibson-Watt, Rt. Hn. David Macmillan, Rt. Hn. M. (Farnham) Spicer, Jim (Dorset, W.)
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury) Spicer, Michael (Worcestershire, S.)
Glyn, Dr. Alan McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) Sproat, Iain
Goodhart, Philip Madel, David Stainton, Keith
Goodhew, Victor Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Stanbrook, Ivor
Goodlad, A. Mather, Carol Stanley, John
Gorst, John Maude, Angus Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald Stodart, Rt. Hn. A. (Edinburgh, W.)
Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Mawby, Ray Stokes, John
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Stradling Thomas, John
Gray, Hamish Mayhew, Patrick (Royal T' bridge Wells) Tapsell, Peter
Grieve, Percy Meyer, Sir Anthony Taylor, Edward M. (Glgow, C'cart)
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Miller, Hal (B'grove & R'ditch) Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Grist, Ian Mills, Peter Tebbit, Norman
Grylls, Michael Miscampbell, Norman Temple-Morris, Pete;
Gurden, Harold Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Margaret
Hall, Sir John Moate, Roger Thomas, Rt. Hn. P. (B'net, H'den S.)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Molyneaux, James Townsend, C. D.
Hampson, Dr. Keith Monro, Hector Trotter, Neville
Hannam, John Moore, J. E. M. (Croydon, C.) Tugendhat, Christopher
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Morgan, Geraint Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Harvie Anderson, Rt. Hn. Miss Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Viggers, Peter
Hastings, Stephen Morris, Michael (Northampton, S.) Waddington, David
Havers, Sir Michael Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Wakeham, John
Hawkins, Paul Morrison, Peter (City of Chester) Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Hayhoe, Barney Mudd, David Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Henderson, J.S.B. (Dunbartonshire, E.) Neave, Airey Wall, Patrick
Heseltine, Michael Neubert, Michael Walters, Dennis
Higgins, Terence Newton, Tony (Braintree) Warren, Kenneth
Holland, Philip Nicholls, Sir Harmar Weatherill, Bernard
Hordern, Peter Normanton, Tom Wells, John
Howe, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Surrey, E.) Nott, John Wiggin, Jerry
Howell, David (Guildford) Onslow, Cranley Winterton, Nicholas
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, North) Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Hunt, John Osborn, John Worsley, Sir Marcus
Hurd, Douglas Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby) Young, Sir George (Ealing, Acton)
Hutchison, Michael Clark Page, John (Harrow, W.)
[...]emonger, T. L. Parkinson, Cecil (Hertfordshire, S.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Pattle, Geoffrey Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and
James, David Percival, Ian Mr. A. G. F. Hall-Davis.
Jenkin, Rt. Hn. P. (R'dge W'std & W'fd) Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Jessel, Toby Pink, R. Bonner
NOES
Abse, Leo Bates, Alf Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Allaun, Frank Baxter, William Booth, Albert
Armstrong, Ernest Beith, A. J. Boothroyd, Miss Betty
Ashton, Joe Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Bottomley, Rt. Hon. Arthur
Atkins, Ronald Bennett, Andrew F. (Stockport, N.) Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Atkinson, Norman Bidwell, Sydney Bradley, Tom
Bagier, Gordon, A. T. Bishop, E. S. Broughton, Sir Alfred
Barnett, Joel (Heywood & Royton) Blenkinsop, Arthur Brown, Bob (Newcastle upon Tyne, W.)
Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan) Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Ovenden, John
Brown, Ronald (H'gey, S. & Sh'ditch) Hatton, Frank Owen, Dr. David
Buchan, Norman Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Padley, Walter
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (H'gey, WoodGreen) Heffer, Eric S. Palmer, Arthur
Callaghan, Jim (M'dd'ton & Pr'wch) Hooley, Frank Pardoe, John
Campbell, Ian Hooson, Emlyn Park, George (Coventry, N.E.)
Cant, R. B. Horam, John Parker, John (Dagenham)
Carmichael, Neil Howell, Denis (B'ham, Small Heath) Parry, Robert
Carter, Ray Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Pavitt, Laurie
Carter-Jones, Lewis Huckfield, Leslie Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Pendry, Tom
Clemitson, Ivor Hughes, Mark (Durham) Perry, Ernest G.
Cocks, Michael Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, North) Phipps, Dr. Colin
Cohen, Stanley Hughes, Roy (Newport) Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.
Coleman, Donald Hunter, Adam Prescott, John
Colquhoun, Mrs. M. N. Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (L'p'I, EdgeHI) Price, Christopher (Lewisham, W.)
Conlan, Bernard Irving, Rt. Hn. Sydney (Dartford) Price, William (Rugby)
Cook, Robert F. (Edinburgh, C.) Jackson, Colin Radice, Giles
Cox, Thomas Janner, Greville Rees, Rt. Hn. Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, Maryhill) Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Reid, George
Cronin, John Jeger, Mrs. Lena Richardson, Miss Jo
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (B'ham, St'fd) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Cryer, G. R. John, Brynmor Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Cunningham, G.(Isl'ngt'n, S & F'sb'ry) Johnson, James (K'ston upon Hull, W) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Cunningham, Dr. John A. (Whiteh 'v' n) Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Roderick, Caerwyn E.
Davidson, Arthur Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Rodgers, George (Chorley)
Davies, Bryan (Enfield, N.) Jones, Dan (Burnley) Rodgers, William (Teesside, St'ckton)
Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) Rooker, J. W.
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Roper, John
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Judd, Frank Rose, Paul B.
Deakins, Eric Kaufman, Gerald Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Dean, Joseph (Leeds, W.) Kelley, Richard Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Kerr, Russell Rowlands, Edward
Delargy, Hugh Kilroy-Silk, Robert Sandelson, Neville
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Kinnock, Neil Sedgemore, Bryan
Dempsey, James Lambie, David Selby, Harry
Doig, Peter Lamborn, Harry Shaw, Arnold (Redbridge, Ilford, S.)
Dormand, J. D. Lamond, James Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce Lawson, George (Motherwell & Wishaw) Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (S'pney & P'plar)
Duffy, A. E. P. Leadbitter, Ted Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'ctle-u-Tyne)
Dunn, James A. Lee, John Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hamp'n, N. E.)
Dunnett, Jack Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Sillars, James
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth Lewis, Arthur (Newham, N.) Silverman, Julius
Eadie, Alex Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Skinner, Dennis
Edelman, Maurice Lipton, Marcus Small, William
Edge, Geoff Loughlin, Charles Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Edwards. Robert (W'hampton, S.E.) Loyden, Eddie Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Ellis, John (Brigg & Scunthorpe) Lyons, Edward (Bradford, W.) Snape, Peter
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Spearing, Nigel
English, Michael McCartney, Hugh Spriggs, Leslie
Ennals, David McElhone, Frank Stallard, A. W.
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) MacFarquhar, Roderick Steel, David
Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) McGuire, Michael Stewart, Rt. Hn. M. (H'eth, Fulh'm)
Evans, John (Newton) Mackenzie, Gregor Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Ewing, Harry (St'ling, F'kirk & G'm'th) Maclennan, Robert Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Stott, Roger
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) McNamara, Kevin Strang, Gavin
Flannery, Martin Madden, M. O. F. Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Magee, Bryan Summerskill, Rt. Hn. Shirley
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Mahon, Simon Swain, Thomas
Foot, Rt. Hn. Michael Mallalieu, J. P. W. Taverne, Dick
Ford, Ben Marks, Kenneth Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Forrester, John Marquand, David Thorne, Stan (Preston, S.)
Fowler, Gerry (The Wrekin) Marshall, Dr. Edmund (Goole) Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) Mayhew, Christopher (G'wh, W'wch, E) Tierney, Sydney
Freud, Clement Meacher, Michael Tinn, James
Galpern, Sir Myer Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Tomlinson, John
Garrett, John (Norwich, S.) Mikardo, Ian Tomney, Frank
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Millan, Bruce Torney, Tom
George, Bruce Miller, Dr. M. S. (E. Kilbride) Tuck, Raphael
Gilbert, Dr. John Milne, Edward Tyler, Paul
Ginsburg, David Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) Urwin, T. W.
Gourlay, Harry Molloy, William Varley, Rt. Hn. Eric G.
Graham, Ted Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Grant, George (Morpeth) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Grant, John (Islington, C.) Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, Ladywood)
Griffiths, Eddie (Sheffield, Brightside) Moyle, Roland Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Newens, Stanley (Harlow) Watt, Hamish
Hamilton, William (Fife, C.) Oakes, Gordon Weitzman, David
Hamling, William Ogden, Eric Wellbeloved, James
Hardy, Peter O'Halloran, Michael White, James
Harper, Joseph O'Malley, Brian Whitehead, Phillip
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Orbach, Maurice Whitlock, William
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick Wilson, William (Coventry, S.E.) Young, David (Bolton, E.)
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) Winstanley, Dr. Michael
Williams, Alan Lee (Hvrng, Hchurch) Wise, Mrs. Audrey TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Williams, Rt. Hn. Shirley (H 'f' d & St'ge) Woodall, Alec Mr. John Golding and
Williams, W. T. (Warrington) Woof, Robert Mr. Walter Johnson.
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) Wrigglesworth, Ian

Question accordingly negatived.

Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Next we come to the Government Amendments Nos. 12, 13, 14 and 15 on page 75, and Amendments Nos. 23 to 37.

Mr. Higgins

I do not understand what is happening. Am I right in thinking that all these are consequential on those debated previously?

Dr. Gilbert

I do not think that Amendment No. 24 is included. That is the subject of a new group.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

I should have stopped at Amendment No. 23.

Amendments made:

No. 12, in page 10, line 16, leave out from 'balance' to end of line 20 and insert 'on 26th March 1974 of the overdrawn account and at the rate at which interest on that balance was chargeable on 26th March 1974 and the limit on the amount interest payable on which is excepted by paragraph (b) of that subsection is that debit balance. (6) For the purposes of this section—

  1. (a) a debt replaces another if it is incurred for the purpose of discharging that other debt or a debt replacing it; and
  2. (b) a debt incurred by overdrawing an account which had a debit balance on 26th March 1974 shall be treated as incurred on or before that date; and
  3. (c) a debt incurred by debiting the account of a person as the holder of a credit card or under similar arrangements shall be treated as incurred by overdrawing that account and "overdraft" shall be construed accordingly.'

No. 13, in line 28, leave out 'in writing'.

No. 14, in line 29, at end insert and that the offer either was in writing or was evidenced by a note or memorandum made by the lender on or before that date.'

No. 15, in line 30, leave out 'the obligation to pay the interest' and insert 'the debt on which the interest is payable'.[Dr. Gilbert.]

Forward to