HC Deb 16 July 1974 vol 877 cc347-59

8.45 p.m.

Mr. Reginald Eyre (Birmingham, Hall Green)

I beg to move, in page 3, line 28, at end insert: except in the case of bets made by way of pool betting in respect of a competition for prizes held by—

  1. (a) the holder of a licence under the Pool Competitions Act 1971, or
  2. (h) any person approved by the Secretary of State in that behalf on the recommendation of the Gaming Board for Great Britain,
in respect of which the amount of the pool betting duty shall be 33⅓ per cent.' I intend to speak briefly in moving the amendment in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Wilson), because I believe the case in its support is well known to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House. The Financial Secretary showed his interest in and sympathy for the case when he recently received a deputation attending on behalf of a group of sports supporting pools.

The first point I would stress is that the benefit of this amendment—a modest reduction in the rate of pool betting duty from 40 per cent. to 33⅓ per cent.—would be restricted to those societies promoting pools for the purpose of raising badly-needed funds to sustain sporting organisations and charities. My own special sympathy is for the Warwickshire Cricket Supporters Association, because its pool promotion enables it to help cricket groups all over the country through grants and loans.

I am also glad that this amendment would aid several similar organisations supporting famous football clubs as well as charities serving worthy causes. I stress the great difference between these pools and commercial pools, which would pay the increased duty of 40 per cent. Those commercial pools pay out huge prizes, and they can afford the higher rate of tax.

I believe that the Government mistakenly overlooked the plight of the sports-supporting and charity-supporting pools when the increase was planned. The amendment gives the Government the opportunity to correct that oversight.

When pool betting duty was increased from 25 per cent. to 33⅓ per cent., sports-supporting and charity-supporting pools suffered a considerable reduction in takings. They are now struggling to survive and continue their good work. They pay out modest prizes and therefore have difficulty in maintaining their attraction to supporters, especially in view of the heavy increase that has taken place in administrative expenses over the past year or two.

We know that the whole question of financing sport and charitable causes is under review. I submit that in the meantime there is an urgent need to keep these organisations in being. I confidently plead with the Financial Secretary to accept this amendment, which has strong support on both sides of the House.

Mr. William Wilson (Coventry, South-East)

I support this amendment, and I must do so first by declaring an interest. I am the proud possessor of 121 25p shares in Coventry City Football Club—one of the clubs which benefit from the pools which are the subject of this amendment. Suffice it to say that those shares have never paid a dividend and are never likely to do so. They were purchased when Coventry City was in the bottom half of the Fourth Division, and although we are now in the dizzy heights of the First Division the prospect of a dividend is as far away as ever.

The greatest political insult I ever received was at the time of the last General Election when, wearing my red and white Labour Party ribbons in Coventry, I was asked by a small child whether I was a supporter of Manchester United.

There are two points which need to be considered in relation to this amendment and the Clause. First, are the pools concerned worthy of support and recommendation? Second, if the Bill goes through as it stands, is the clause likely to produce more or less tax for the Exchequer? The pools which we seek to help are not run for private profit or individual gain; they all contribute to the sporting fraternity and well-being of sporting clubs. Obviously they are entitled to support.

Anyone who studies the problem can see clearly that the Chancellor is likely to finish up with less revenue rather than more unless—I enter this simple proviso —he says, "I am ready to soak Little-woods and Vernons and I do not mind what happens to sporting clubs and their pools." If he says that, we know where we are. Otherwise, the situation is clear—less revenue will be secured.

The Chancellor should appreciate that when the tax was increased from 25 per cent. to 33; per cent. a number of pools helping sporting clubs went out of existence. More have given up since the 40 per cent. rate was imposed. The writing is on the wall.

Let me explain what happened to Coventry City Football Club pool. It started in January 1967, and had the object of providing better facilities for football in Coventry and of improving the ground and club facilities, which are admirable objects. We were making £80,000 a year, all of it ploughed back into the club and its facilities. That was the beginning. When the tax was increased to 33⅓ per cent. the figure ploughed back was £50,000–60,000 per year. Now that the rate has risen to 40 per cent., to the pool helping Coventry Football Club is losing £200 per week. Obviously, we cannot go on in that way much longer. The Coventry City pool, which was one of the best in the country, is drying up. With inflation, the cost of running the pool, and now the increased tax, £200 per week is being lost. Those are the simple economics of the situation.

The kindest thing I can say about the Bill's proposal affecting the football club pools is this: no one thought it through to the logical end, or could really see what was going to be achieved. Surely it was not the intention of the Chancellor that after they ceased to make a profit the pools supporting football clubs should be dealt with in this way. It is unfortunate that those helping football clubs are being hampered in this way.

I urge the Financial Secretary to accept the amendment. The difference it will make to his revenue is neither here nor there. If he accepts this amendment he will probably finish up with more revenue.

Dr. Gilbert

I have listened with close attention to the eloquent speeches of my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Wilson) and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Eyre).

I accept that sporting and charitable pools are now facing difficult times. I accept that they are faced, as are other forms of economic activity, with a situation in which expenses and taxes are rising and revenues are falling because of the difficulties in selling tickets. I listened with considerable sympathy to the remarks of the two hon. Members. Unfortunately, I do not think that I can be as forthcoming as I would wish in response to their representations.

My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-East, rightly in my view, suggested that the effect of the Finance Bill would be to produce less revenue for the Treasury from sporting and charitable pools. I would not resist that case very strongly, but my hon. Friend did not address himself to the consideration which Treasury Ministers have to have—whether the effect of his proposal would not also be to produce less revenue for the Treasury, in this case in terms of revenue from the commercial pools.

The effect of the amendment would be to create a tax privilege position as between sporting and charitable pools on the one hand and the commercial pools on the other, and it follows that it would be easier for those pools, whose case my hon. Friend has been arguing, to offer prizes which would be a higher proportion of the stake money than would be the case with commercial pools. That is unarguable, and the consequence would be that the modest punter would be tempted to switch his custom away from the commercial pools to the non-commercial pools.

Mr. Arthur Lewis (Newham, North-West)

All the better.

Dr. Gilbert

So be it, but I am addressing myself solely to the question of the net effect on the revenue, and there would be a good chance that the result of what is suggested, in its net effect would be a considerable loss to the Treasury. I should make it clear that some of the pools whose case hon. Members have argued are very big business. The larger so-called charitable pools have a gross revenue considerably in excess of all but a couple of the commercial pools. The loss to the revenue could be considerable.

As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green said, I received a deputation—I hope. sympathetically—a 'week ago. I listened carefully and we had a long discussion, which I hope the members of the deputation considered effective and detailed. I undertook to examine their case and asked them to let me have much more information. I have had a certain amount of information from one of the members of the deputation and I hope to get much more in due course. It would not be right for me to reveal everything contained in that communication, but I must tell the House that, so far, it has not met what I had in mind in terms of detailed financial information as to the effect of the proposed tax on individual pools and their costs and revenues.

The law at present is in a very unsatisfactory state with regard to the pools. I see the right hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) in his place. I hope he will not mind if I refer to him as the joker in the pack in this situation, because his contribution, in terms of the Local Revenue Bill, has been to make a confused situation considerably more confused.

We are still considering the interdepartmental working party's report on lotteries generally. The report was published last December, as Cmnd. 5506, and we have not yet been able to complete our consideration of it. It suggested that the long-term interests of charitable and sporting pools might lie along the general line of promotion of lotteries. It also envisaged two-tier lotteries, the smaller type being duty-free and the larger ones paying the full rate of duty. This concept may have to be modified as a result of the progress of the legislation sponsored by the right hon. Gentleman.

9.0 p.m.

We sympathise with the difficulty here. The sporting pools hold a privileged position, as I am sure they would be the first to recognise. It is impossible for any outsider to join the group. I recognise that paragraph (b) is probably intended to deal with that difficulty in respect of the preceding words: except in the case of bets by way of pool betting in respect of a competition … held by any person approved by the Secretary of State in that behalf". That might be intened to extend the membership of that select group, but its effect is highly uncertain, and new competitions on the same lines as those already registered under the Act would fall to be regarded as lotteries and, as such, unlawful under the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act

Mr. Eyre

Of course, if on technical grounds the Minister sought to improve the wording of paragraph (b), I am sure that the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Wilson) and I would be glad to agree.

Dr. Gilbert

I am obliged. I was not resisting the proposal on technical grounds, but simply pointing out the effect in substantive terms. Without paragraph (b) we should still perpetuate a priviliged fiscal arrangement for a small group of pools which run only a few football clubs—about a dozen or so—although I recognise that the Warwickshire Cricket Club pool spreads its benefits widely over sport in different parts of the country.

Although I have great sympathy for this proposal, I should need to see in greater detail than I have so far the immediate financial implications, for the pools, of my right hon. Friend's proposals. The most satisfactory way to proceed is by a general review of the law in this regard, which, it will be agreed, is very confused. I recognise that this is an argument for delay and will not satisfy the hon. Gentleman, who wants action immediately. I hope that he will accept that I have tried to consider the amendment as sympathetically as possible but unfortunately am unable to be as forthcoming as I have been able to be with the House on previous amendments.

Mr. R. Carr

No one knows better than someone who has been Home Secretary what a mess this whole field of lotteries and so on is in and the need for rationalisation. It was when I was Home Secretary that the inter-departmental working party report was published. I hope that that leads quickly to some conclusions by the Government about the proper structure of law in this area. So I speak from a clear knowledge of and feeling about the present muddle and the need for reform.

But it is just because I am conscious that the present position can last for only a short time that I find the Financial Secretary's arguments wholly unconvincing. He has not opposed the amendment because of the great direst cost involved. In fact, he said in Committee that the total direct cost of removing the duty altogether would be about £7 million, whereas the proposition is not to remove the proposed 40 per cent. duty altogether but to reduce it from a proposed 40 per cent. to the existing rate of 33½ per cent. or whatever it is. The direct cost of the amendment, therefore, is very small.

What we have to assess is the weight which we ought to attach to the Financial Secretary's fear that this may lead to a substantial indirect cost because these privileged pools will take advantage in the future of their differential rate of duty to make themselves so attractive that they will attract an enormous amount of business from the commercial pools and, therefore, the Exchequer will lose revenue from the commercial pools. When we examine that proposition we see that it is a typical Treasury argument of the least convincing kind.

The House will notice that paragraph (a) of the amendment is couched in terms of licensing under the Pool Competitions Act 1971. I forget exactly when that Act runs out, but it is an interim Act with a fixed term. Therefore, the Government will, in any event, have to legislate in this field on a permanent basis—I think within a couple of years—whatever Government are in power.

Therefore, the maximum amount of time that these privileged pools under this temporary Act have in which to redress their affairs and attract all this business away from commercial pools is at most about a couple of years. They will not do that. It is not worth it in the time involved. Moreover, they know that as they have a maximum of two years life, if they were to start to do that they would not be in a very popular position with the Government of the day, of whichever party they may be, in getting suitable arrangements to replace the 1971 Act.

I suggest, therefore, that the fear that the Financial Secretary expresses about the privileged pools using, if we allowed the amendment to go through, differential rates of duty to attract a large amount of business from the commercial pools is more a figment of the imagination, a sort of fevered fear on the part of the Treasury, than something based on any hard reality. What is more, we heard a great deal from the Financial Secretary about another Finance Bill that is coming, he hopes, in the near future. If that happens, or if we do not have another Finance Bill until next April or May, or whatever the normal time is, there is not all that long a period. If this fear proved to have substance, the door could be closed at that stage.

This is an imagined fear and not a real fear. This whole area of legislation must be amended in the near future, partly because of the basic need and partly because the 1971 Act comes to an end anyhow within the next couple of years. Why should these beneficial pools be hit and suffer, and why should sport, recreation and certain charities suffer, in the meantime? If the Government maintain their position, I am afraid that I must advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to support the amendment in the Division Lobby.

Mr. Graham Page

I join with my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) in giving that advice.

The Financial Secretary kindly referred to what he called the joker in the pack—the Bill on local lotteries. I sought no advantage to local authorities over the sports pools or charitable pools in initiating that legislation. I should be very pleased to see an advantage to the sports pools as against local lotteries. I should like to see the differentials between 40 per cent. and 33½ per cent., to give that little edge on it for the sports pools. This seems the entirely wrong moment to increase taxation on those pools when the clubs concerned are having difficulties. I ask the Financial Secretary not to use the Bill which I have introduced as an argument against the amendment.

The problem is that of getting on with the job of legislating for lotteries. The Financial Secretary said that the report he mentioned had been published last December. The Government have therefore had a long time to consider it and indeed Civil Servants have had this matter before them for much longer and are ready with advice, as they were last December.

To leave the existing tax on the sports pools and not to increase it will not mess up legislation on the law on lotteries. The action suggested can be taken pending the massive reform of lotteries. Let us give a little advantage now and not increase the

taxation at this time when these pools are having difficulties.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 291, Noes 274.

Division No. 84. AYES [9.13 p.m.
Adley, Robert Elliott, Sir William Jones, Arthur (Daventry)
Aitken, Jonathan Emery, Peter Jopling, Michael
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Eyre, Reginald Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Fairgrieve, Russell Kaberry, Sir Donald
Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian Farr, John Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine
Ancram, M. Fell, Anthony Kershaw, Anthony
Archer, Jeffrey Fenner, Mrs. Peggy Kilfedder, James A.
Atkins, Rt. Hn. Humphrey (Spelthorne) Fidler, Michael Kimball, Marcus
Awdry, Daniel Finsberg, Geoffrey King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord Fisher, Sir Nigel King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Banks, Robert Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh, N.) Kitson, Sir Timothy
Bell, Ronald Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Knight, Mrs. Jill
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) Fookes, Miss Janet Knox, David
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Fareham) Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'field) Lament, Norman
Benyon, W. Fox, Marcus Lane, David
Berry, Hon. Anthony Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) Langford-Holt, Sir John
Biffen, John Freud, Clement Latham, Michael (Melton)
Biggs-Davison, John Fry, Peter Lawrence, Ivan
Blaker, Peter Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D. Lawson. Nigel (Blaby)
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.) Gardiner, George (Reigate & Banstead) Le Marchant, Spencer
Body, Richard Gardner, Edward (S. Fylde) Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Boscawen, Hon. Robert Gibson-Watt, Rt. Hn. David Lewis, Kenneth (Rtland & Stmford)
Bowden, Andrew (Brighton, Kemptown) Gilmour, Rt. Hn. Ian (Ch'sh' & Amsh'm) Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo)
Boyson, Dr. Rhodes (Brent, N.) Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) McAdden, Sir Stephen
Braine, Sir Bernard Glyn, Dr. Alan MacArthur, Ian
Bray, Ronald Goodhart, Philip McCrindle, R. A.
Britlan, Leon Goodhew, Victor McCusker, H.
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Goodlad, A. Macfarlane, Neil
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Gorst, John MacGregor, John
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) McLaren, Martin
Bryan, Sir Paul Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Macmillan, Rt. Hn. M. (Farnham)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)
Buck, Antony Gray, Hamish McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Budgen, Nick Grieve, Percy Madel, David
Bulmer, Esmond Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Burden, F. A. Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. Marten, Neil
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Grist, Ian Mather, Carol
Carlisle, Mark Grylls, Michael Maude, Angus
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Gurden, Harold Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Chalker, Mrs. Lynda Hall, Sir John Mawby, Ray
Channon, Paul Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Mayhew, Christopher (G'wh, W'wch, E)
Clark, A. K. M. (Plymouth, Sutton) Hampson, Dr. Keith Mayhew, Patrick (RoyalT' bridge Wells)
Clark, William (Croydon, S.) Hannam, John Meyer, Sir Anthony
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Miller, Hal (B'grove & R'ditch)
Clegg, Walter Harvie Anderson, Rt. Hn. Miss Mills, Peter
Cockcroft, John Hastings, Stephen Miscampbell, Norman
Cooke, Robert (Bristol. W.) Havers, Sir Michael Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Cope, John Hawkins, Paul Moate, Roger
Cordle, John Hayhoe, Barney Molyneaux, James
Cormack, Patrick Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward Money, Ernie
Corrie, John Henderson, J. S. B. (Dunbartonshire, E.) Monro, Hector
Costain, A. P. Heseltine, Michael Moore, J. E. M. (Croydon, C.)
Craig, Rt. Hn. William (Belfast. W.) Higgins, Terence Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Critchley, Julian Hill, James A. Morris, Michael (Northampton, S.)
Crouch, David Holland, Philip Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Crowder, F. P. Hooson, Emlyn Morrison Peter (City of Chester)
Davies, Rt. Kn. John (Knutsford) Hordern, Peter Mudd, David
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James Howell, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Surrey, E.) Neave, Airey
Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Howell, David (Guildford) Neubert, Michael
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, North) Newton, Tony (Braintree)
Dixon, Piers Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Dodds-Parker, Sir Douglas Hunt, John Normanton, Tom
Dodsworth, Geoffrey Hurd, Douglas Nott, John
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Hutchison, Michael Clark Onslow, Cranley
Drayson, Burnaby Iremonger, T. L. Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Durant, Tony James, David Osborn, John
Dykes, Hugh Jenkin, Rt. Hn. P. (R'dge W'std & W'fd) Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)
Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John Jessel, Toby Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Pardoe, John
Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Parkinson, Cecil (Hertfordshire, S.)
Pattie, Geoffrey Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) Townsend, C. D.
Percival, Ian Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) Trotter, Neville
Pink, R. Bonner Shelton, William (L'mb'th, Streath'm) Tugendhat, Christopher
Price, David (Eastleigh) Shersby, Michael Tyler, Paul
Prior, Rt. Hn. James Silvester, Fred van Straubenzee, W. R.
Raison, Timothy Sims, Roger Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Rathbone, Tim Sinclair, Sir George Viggers, Peter
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter Skeet, T. H. H. Waddington, David
Redmond, Robert Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'm'ngton) Wakeham, John
Rees-Davies, W. R. Spence, John Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David (H't' gd 'ns' re) Spicer, Jim (Dorset, W.) Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Renton, R. T. (Mid-Sussex) Spicer, Michael (Worcestershire, S.) Wall, Patrick
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Sproat, Iain Warren, Kenneth
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas Stanbrook, Ivor Wells, John
Ridsdale, Julian Stanley, John Wiggin, Jerry
Rifkind, Malcolm Steel, David Wilson, William (Coventry, S.F.)
Pippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey Steen, Anthony (L'pool, Wavertree) Winstanley, Dr. Michael
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.-W.) Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) Winterton, Nicholas
Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Stodart, Rt. Hn. A. (Edinburgh, W.) Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Stokes, John Worsley, Sir Marcus
Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Taylor, Edward M. (Glgow, C'cart) Young, Sir George (Ealing, Acton)
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Rost, Peter (Derbyshire, S.-E.) Tebbit, Norman TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Royle, Sir Anthony Temple-Morris, Peter
St. John-Stevas, Norman Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Margaret Mr. John Stradling Thomas and
Scott-Hopkins, James Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy Mr. Richard Luce.
Abse, Leo Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) Hardy, Peter
Allaun, Frank Davies, Ifor (Gower) Harper, Joseph
Archer, Peter Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Armstrong, Ernest Deakins, Eric Hatton, Frank
Ashley, Jack Dean, Joseph (Leeds, W.) Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Ashton, Joe de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Heffer, Eric S.
Atkins, Ronald Delargy, Hugh Hooley, Frank
Atkinson, Norman Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Horam, John
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Dempsey, James Howell, Denis (B'ham, Small Heath)
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Doig, Peter Huckfield, Leslie
Barnett, Joel (Heywood & Royton) Dormand, J. D. Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Bates, Alf Douglas-Mann, Bruce Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Baxter, William Duffy, A. E. P. Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, North)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Dunn, James A. Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Bennett, Andrew F. (Stockport, N.) Dunnett, Jack Hunter, Adam
Bidwell, Sydney Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (L'p'I, EdgeHI)
Bishop, E. S. Eadie, Alex Irving, Rt. Hn. Sydney (Dartford)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Edelman, Maurice Jackson, Colin
Boardman, H. Edge, Geoff Janner, Greville
Booth, Albert Edwards, Robert (W'hampton, S.E.) Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Ellis, John (Brigg & Scunthorpe) Jeger, Mrs. Lena
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Jenkins, Hugh (W'worth, Putney)
Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) English, Michael Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (B'ham, St'fd)
Bradley, Tom Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) John, Brynmor
Broughton, Sir Alfred Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Johnson, James (K'ston upon Hull, W)
Brown, Bob (Newcastle upon Tyne, W.) Evans, John (Newton) Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan) Ewing, Harry (St'ling, F'kirk & G'm'th) Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Brown, Ronald (H'kney, S. & Sh'ditch) Faulds, Andrew Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Buchan, Norman Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (H'gey, WoodGreen) Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Jones, Alec (Rhondda)
Callaghan, Jim (M'dd'ton & Pr'wch) Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.) Judd, Frank
Campbell, Ian Flannery, Martin Kaufman, Gerald
Cant, R. B. Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Kelley, Richard
Carmichael, Neil Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Kerr, Russell
Carter, Ray Foot, Rt. Hn. Michael Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Carter-Jones, Lewis Ford, Ben Kinnock, Neil
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Forrester, John Lambie, David
Clemitson, Ivor Fowler, Gerry (The Wrekin) Lamborn, Harry
Cocks, Michael Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) Lamond, James
Cohen, Stanley Freeson, Reginald Lawson, George (Motherwell & Wishaw)
Coleman, Donald Galpern, Sir Myer Leadbitter, Ted
Colquhoun, Mrs. M. N. Garrett, John (Norwich, S.) Lee, John
Conlan, Bernard Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)
Cook, Robert F. (Edinburgh, C.) George, Bruce Lewis, Arthur (Newham, N.)
Cox, Thomas Gilbert, Dr. John Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, Maryhill) Ginsburg, David Loughlin, Charles
Cronin, John Golding, John Loyden, Eddie
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Gourlay, Harry Lyons, Edward (Bradford, W.)
Cryer, G. R. Graham, Ted Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Cunningham, G. (Isl'ngt'n, S & F'sb'ry) Grant, George (Morpeth) McCartney, Hugh
Cunningham, Dr. John A.(Whiteh 'v' n) Grant, John (Islington, C.) McElhone, Frank
Dalyell, Tam Griffiths, Eddie (Sheffield, Brightside) MacFarquhar, Roderick
Davidson, Arthur Hamilton, William (Fife, C.) McGuire, Michael
Davies, Bryan (Enfield, N.) Hamling, William Mackenzie, Gregor
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Madden, M. O. F. Prescott, John Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Magee, Bryan Price, Christopher (Lewisham, W.) Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Mahon, Simon Price, William (Rugby) Swain, Thomas
Mallalieu, J. P. W. Radice, Giles Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Marks, Kenneth Richardson, Miss Jo Thorne, Stan (Preston, S.)
Marquand, David Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Tierney, Sydney
Marshall, Dr. Edmund (Goole) Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) Tinn, James
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Robertson, John (Paisley) Tomlinson, John
Meacher, Michael Roderick, Caerwyn E. Tomney, Frank
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Rodgers, George (Chorley) Torney, Tom
Mendelson, John Rodgers, William (Teesside, St'ckton) Urwin, T. W.
Mikardo, Ian Rooker, J. W. Varley, Rt. Hn. Eric G.
Millan, Bruce Roper, John Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Miller, Dr. M. S. (E. Kilbride) Rose, Paul B. Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, Ladywood)
Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Molloy, William Rowlands, Edward Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Moonman, Eric Sandelson, Neville Watkins, David
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Sedgemore, Bryan Weitzman, David
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Selby, Harry Wellbeloved, James
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) Shaw, Arnold (Redbridge, Ilford, S.) White, James
Moyle, Roland Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) Whitehead, Phillip
Murray, Ronald King Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (S'pney & P'plar) Whitlock, William
Newens, Stanley (Harlow) Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hamp'n, N.E.) Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Oakes, Gordon Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (L'sham, D'ford) Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Ogden, Eric Silkin, Rt. Hn. S. C. (S'hwark, Dulwich) Williams, Alan Lee (Hvrng, Hchurch)
O'Halloran, Michael Sillars, James Williams, Rt. Hn. Shirley (H'f'd & St'ge)
O'Malley, Brian Silverman, Julius Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
Orbach, Maurice Skinner, Dennis Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Ovenden, John Small, William Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Owen, Dr. David Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) Woodall, Alec
Padley, Walter Snape, Peter Woof, Robert
Palmer, Arthur Spearing, Nigel Wrigglesworth, Ian
Park, George (Coventry, N.E.) Spriggs, Leslie Young, David (Bolton, E.)
Parker, John (Dagenham) Stallard, A. W.
Parry, Robert Stewart, Rt. Hn. M. (H'sth, Fulh'm) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Pavitt, Laurie Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Pendry, Tom Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John Mr. James Hamilton and
Phipps, Dr. Colin Stott, Roger Mr. Ernest G. Perry.
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg Strang, Gavin

Question accordingly agreed to.

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