HC Deb 10 July 1974 vol 876 cc1337-9
5. Mr. Harry Ewing

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the shortage of List D school places.

Mr. Robert Hughes

I have recently had discussions with the local authority associations and other interests concerned. All are aware of the present difficulties and there is general agreement on the need for a wider range of facilities, including intermediate treatment facilities, to meet the needs of children coming before the hearings. Some additional facilities are being provided or are being planned, and any further proposals will be given every possible encouragement within the resources available.

Mr. Ewing

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. May I point out to him that the children's hearings system in Scotland is now in very serious danger of breaking down completely, not because the people working the system do not want to make it work but because the facilities are not available to enable them to give the prescribed treatment to the children? My hon. Friend talks about intermediate forms of treatment; will he expand on that matter?

Mr. Hughes

First, I do not go as far as my hon. Friend and say that the system is in danger of breaking down. One understands that there are difficulties. For example, in 1972—the latest year for which figures have been published—children's hearings dealt with 23,144 reports submitted to them. They have, therefore, a tremendous job to do. But all the people to whom I have spoken about this have said that the additional provision of List D places was not the answer. By intermediate treatment I mean something between simple supervision by a social worker and people being taken out of the community into a special residential establishment. This can be done in a number of ways. Experiments are taking place in Edinburgh, Clackmannan and elsewhere. The idea is that the children will get the care and attention they need without necessarily being removed from the home environment.

Mr. Monro

Does the hon. Gentleman remember that the Labour Party, when in opposition, criticised the lack of List D places? In the four months since the General Election, has the hon. Gentleman formulated any policies to provide more places? How many more are in the pipeline now than were in it in February?

Mr. Hughes

Certainly we criticised the lack of places. During the hon. Gentleman's term of office the number of places went down, and in the three years that he was in office the waiting list grew from virtually nil to 607, which was the count at 31st March. We cannot provide additional places overnight. The hon. Gentleman knows of the 80 additional places which are planned—certainly planned by the administration of which he was a member—and the 150 assessment centres. We cannot start erecting more buildings for List D places overnight. This is a process which must be considered. We are not satisfied that List D placing is necessarily the whole answer.

Mr. Robertson

Will my hon. Friend, nevertheless, not be complacent about this problem, which is very serious and pressing? The information that I have from the Paisley local authority is that more than one-third of the time of the social work department is taken up in trying to deal with this problem. Unless there is some other provision, either of intermediate treatment or List D places, the system is in danger of breaking down, with very severe consequences.

Mr. Hughes

I am far from complacent on this issue. From the discussions I have had I am aware of the problem and the fact that we need to provide proper care for the children who land in trouble. Those children are our primary concern, which is why we shall be coming forward with proposals following the wide-ranging discussions I had on how we can help the situation. For example, among the suggestions put forward is that instead of the children going into residential care they can attend List D schools on a day-to-day basis. There are a number of different ways constantly under discussion, and we are far from complacent.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We must speed up a little.