HC Deb 04 July 1974 vol 876 cc600-9
Mr. Heath

Will the Leader of the House please announce the business for next week?

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the (Mr. Edward Short)

The business for next week will be as follows:

MONDAY 8TH JULY—Consideration of Private Members' motions until 7 p.m. Afterwards, Second Reading of the Rent Bill [Lords] and of the Merchant Shipping Bill [Lords].

TUESDAY 9TH JULY AND WEDNESDAY 10TH JULY—Remaining stages of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill.

THURSDAY 11TH JULY—Progress on the Report stage of the Finance Bill.

FRIDAY 12TH JULY—Private Members' motions.

MONDAY 15TH JULY—Supply [13th Allotted Day]: Subject for debate to be announced.

Mr. Heath

May I first ask the right hon. Gentleman about the situation in regard to parliamentary papers and the extent to which we can carry the business which he has announced for next week without them?

The situation has become extremely critical. The right hon. Gentleman has given assurances that he will do his utmost to ensure that papers are available. Is he aware that on the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill there is nothing available, either printed or typed, for Sittings 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17 and 18 of the Standing Committee and no amended Bill is available? It is difficult to understand how the House can possibly carry on its discussions on this basis. The situation on the Finance Bill is also extremely difficult because, as I hope the Leader of the House appreciates, it involves not only this House being able to examine amendments but those outside the House who are customarily concerned in expressing a view on any Finance Bill but now have almost nothing available to them.

I understand that to date in the Finance Bill Committee there have been nine Government defeats on matters which the Government may wish to debate again 13 Opposition amendments were accepted without Division, and in 42 cases in all the Government undertook to review the situation and come forward with amendments. It is impossible for the House to consider such amendments properly—and this applies to those outside who, clearly, will be affected by them and who wish to express their views—if no publication of any kind is available on these matters. I must ask the right hon. Gentleman to ensure that these papers are available before the weekend, or else we shall have to ask for business to be postponed.

Mr. Short

I am very sorry indeed about this difficulty, but the position is as follows. On the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill, I understand that all the Committee HANSARD'S except one are now available and the remaining one will be available tomorrow. [An HON. MEMBER: "No. Go to the Vote Office and ask."] If this is incorrect I apologise, but I inquired about the situation and this is the information I was given. If that is not the case, I shall ensure that the rest are available tomorrow. Most of the amendments will be tabled today but some of the more substantial ones will be tabled tomorrow. The Bill will be available tomorrow. If any hon. Member would like the Bill or amendments sent to his home by special delivery, he should give his name to my office. [Interruption.] These are emergency arrangements and I am trying to help. If the Opposition Chief Whips will cooperate and let me have the names this evening, I shall ensure that every Member who wants copies receives them either tomorrow or on Saturday morning at the latest.

As for the Finance Bill, the whole of the Committee stage proceedings should be available today or tomorrow. I hope that they will all be available today. I am afraid that the proof copy of the Bill will not be available until Monday, but the refined copy will be available on Tuesday. The Lords version of the Rent Bill will be available tomorrow, as will the revised version. If right hon. or hon. Gentlemen have any specific problems, they should let me know and I shall do my best to make emergency arrangements to help them.

Mr. Heath

I am grateful for that statement by the right hon. Gentleman. The information which I have given the House is the latest we had given to us just before 3.30 p.m. today. Obviously we shall further explore the situation.

There is one further point I wish to put to the right hon. Gentleman. When he said that these documents will become available, particularly Finance Bill papers, did he mean that they will be available to the public outside the House as well as to hon. Members and does this also apply to Government amendments? He will clearly recognise that it is important that those outside the House should have the information available on which they can express their views.

I should like to mention two other points. It is reported today that at yesterday's Neddy meeting the Secretary of State for Employment gave a firm undertaking to employers and unions that the Government would not introduce a wage freeze before the General Election, whenever that may be, and, indeed, said that no wage freeze would be introduced after the election. In view of the importance of this issue, will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Secretary of State for Employment to come to the House and make a full statement on this topic?

In view of the situation in National Health Service hospitals, will the right hon. Gentleman seek to provide at least half a day for a debate on this matter—and provide it urgently?

Mr. Short

Dealing with the right hon. Gentleman's first point, I shall look into it to see whether there is any way in which I can help. We are trying to make copies available to people outside who have a special interest. We will do our best.

With regard to the NEDC, my right hon. Friend will be making a statement, not on this specific matter but on his policy generally, before the Summer Recess.

I shall pass on to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services what the right hon. Gentleman said about hospitals.

Mr. William Hamilton

Does my right hon. Friend recall that in answer to a Question of mine on 18th June about the problems of battered wives and children the Prime Minister indicated that the Secretary of State for Social Services would be making a statement on the matter soon? I have heard a rumour that a Select Committee is to be set up to look into these matters. When will that statement be made, and when will the Select Committee be set up?

Mr. Short

I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that I have considered the suggestion put to me by him and by my right hon. Friend. I am happy to agree to a Select Committee being set up. However, there is not much point in setting it up before the Summer Recess, but certainly it will be done in the autumn.

Mr. Tebbit

Is the Leader of the House aware that since he made his statement I have been to the Vote Office? Those in the Vote Office tell me that copies of the Committee proceedings on the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill are not available and, what is more, that they have only the reports of Sittings Nos. 1 to 9? I am afraid that once again the right hon. Gentleman is causing hon. Members to go away with something other than the true state of affairs in their minds.

Mr. Short

If that is so, I apologise. But I also have checked since saying what said a moment ago. The advice which I have is that what I said was absolutely correct. I said that all the Committee HANSARDS except one are available and that that one will be available tomorrow. I can only wait until I leave the Chamber and check further for myself in order to find out the exact position.

Mr. McNamara

My right hon. Friend will be aware that there are many excellent Ten-Minute Bills which have not yet received a Second Reading. I have in mind especially my own Bill on hare coursing, and my right hon. Friend will know that Bills on this subject have been widely supported for the past 10 years. What are the chances of that Bill getting a Second Reading either in Government time or after ten o'clock at night?

Mr. Short

There are still two more days remaining for Private Members' business. If my hon. Friend is unsuccessful on those days, I shall be happy to provide a small amount of time to debate this very important measure.

Mr. Prior

I wish to return to the subject of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill. It is quite clear now from my hon. Friends who have checked with the Vote Office in the last minute or two that these HANSARDS are not available. We know the difficulties. We experienced them when we were in Government. But the position gets worse each month, and the time has come when it is quite intolerable for hon. Members to try to conduct their business without the proper papers. I do not see how we can go on in this way. I believe that it is now becoming a matter of the privilege of the House. We cannot go on being expected to conduct business in this House without the proper papers with which to do so. A few years ago this would not have been tolerated by this House. Right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have exercised enormous patience about this situation over the past few years, but I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the time has come when some very firm action should be taken. [HON. MEMBERS: "How?"] There are plenty of things which could be done. If Government supporters wish to know, one way would be to postpone the taking of this business until the papers are available.

Mr. Short

It is clear that the Conservative Party wants to prove its alleged virility by being as difficult and as obstructive as it can, and then the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends will be making speeches about national unity over the coming weekend. They come here and are as obstructive as it is possible to be. The right hon. Gentleman was himself Leader of the House, He knows quite well that over and over again when he was Leader of the House exactly the same thing happened. I very much regret what has happened, and I am doing all that I can to help. If I have made a mistake or if I have been wrongly informed about the HANSARDS, I shall apologise to the House. I am very sorry about the situation, but we are doing our best.

Sir G. de Freitas

On the subject of Select Committees, does the Leader of the House remember that when the Select Committee on European Secondary Legislation was set up it was done on the assumption that adequate staff would be provided for the Committee and that Government Departments would provide it with information? When will that staff be provided?

Mr. Short

I understand that the additional Speaker's Counsel has been provided already—

Sir G. de Freitas

That is not what I asked.

Mr. Short

If it is not what my right hon. Friend asked, I do not know what he is talking about. We have certainly provided that staff, and Government Departments are giving all the help that they can.

Rev. Ian Paisley

Will the Leader of the House say whether this House will have an opportunity of discussing the White Paper just published on Northern Ireland before the Summer Recess?

Mr. Short

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will be making a statement immediately after business questions, and there will be ample opportunity to debate it later on before the Summer Recess.

Mr. Ford

When will my right hon. Friend be in a position to lay before the House proposals arising from the Boyle Report on Members' allowances? Is he aware that hon. Members are losing secretaries because they cannot afford to pay the going rate, and that some hon. Members are dossing down in the House owing to difficulties arising from exorbitant charges for London accommodation?

Mr. Short

I shall be making a statement very shortly, and certainly before the Summer Recess.

Mr. Tugendhat

Reverting to the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill, naturally we accept the right hon. Gentleman's apology, but does he not accept that the snag that he has just run into shows how difficult it is to guarantee that these papers will be available? Can he tell us what arrangements he will make to ensure that all the various assurances that the Government have given to the Committee will be transmitted to the outside bodies which are connected with the Bill and have been following its progress—not only the TUC, which always knows about these matters before we do, but the various other organisations which have a legitimate interest?

Mr. Short

I understand that this has been discussed through the usual channels. We are doing all that we can to help in this matter.

Mr. John Ellis

Does my right hon. Friend accept that, with regard to the repeal of the Industrial Relations Act, the Opposition are in really great difficulty? Does he appreciate this? Some of the amendments they have withdrawn—

Mr. Speaker

Order. This is not the time for speech-making. What is the question?

Hon. Members

He has not got one.

Mr. Rippon

What arrangements will the Leader of the House make to resume last night's adjourned debate on the European Economic Commission's documents on regional policy so that the Secretary of State for Industry has the opportunity of explaining the Government's policy? Secondly, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for a Government statement to be made on the constitutional implications of the declaration of the Secretary of State that explanatory memoranda issued by a previous administration have no validity? This affects hundreds of circulars and explanatory memoranda. If the Secretary of State is right, will the Government arrange for all of them to be reprinted and redated?

Mr. Short

The answer to the first part of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's question is "None". The answer to the second part is that I will look into it.

Mr. George

Will my right hon. Friend consider allowing time before the end of the Session for this House to consider a very important report published last week; namely, the Finer Report on single-parent families?

Mr. Short

This is an extremely important and very long report which has taken a considerable time to produce. There will have to be extensive consultations on it. But I hope that an opportunity will be found to debate it in this House.

Mrs. Winifred Ewing

Will there be time next week for even a short statement on the non-implementation of the promise in the Gracious Speech of help and assistance for minority parties? The right hon. Gentleman will remember that he welcomed this proposal and thanked the minority parties for making it. As my own minority party works in a situation where, when we reported to the people of Scotland—[Interruption.] Apparently, one hon. Member thinks that this is very boring. I can assure him that the people of Scotland do not. They think it is disgraceful. Do we have to wait for a General Election for a statement, or are we likely to have one next week?

Mr. Short

Not next week, but certainly before the Summer Recess.

Mr. Skinner

Reverting to the arguments that have been put forward by the Leader of the Opposition on the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend is aware that last night we spent five hours discussing guidelines from the Common Market, that the papers were not available in the Vote Office, and that in chorus the whole of the Tory Opposition suggested that we should get on with the debate without the papers? Is not this another instance of their hypocrisy? [Interruption.] Will my right hon. Friend also arrange for a debate on the report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries dealing with the National Coal Board's roof sup- port purchasing and ensure that, when the debate has taken place, a public inquiry is held so that Lord Robens and others associated with these allegations can be brought before it?

Mr. Short

Opportunities are available to the House to discuss these reports. That is the kind of report that could be discussed in one of those debates.

Mr. Costain

Is the Leader of the House aware that the Standing Committee on the Channel Tunnel Bill is due to meet next week, that it is impossible to get the Select Committee reports, and that it is difficult for hon. Members on behalf of their constituents to make contributions until they are available? Will he do something about making them available?

Mr. Short

I will certainly look into the matter.

Mr. Cryer

Will my right hon. Friend give time to debate the security aspects of the House and, in particular, the lack of an automatic fire warning system? Does he accept that if we fail to ensure adequate standards in this place, which is a high fire hazard, we cannot expect offices, shops, factories and hotels to set high standards?

Mr. Short

My hon. Friend will notice that I have put down a motion on the recommendation of the Services Committee, and we shall debate it shortly. I understand that a fire warning system is being installed and that it will be in operation later this year.

Mr. Goodhart

Reverting to the difficulties about the availability of parliamentary papers next week, would it not be better on Tuesday to have a debate on the critical situation in the National Health Service because in the Bethlem and Maudsley group of hospitals the refusal by the staff to work with agency nurses has led to the closing of a number of neurosurgical beds?

Mr. Short

No. I think that we must adhere to the business that I have announced. I am sure that the papers will be available.

Mr. Prior

When will the papers be available? May we have an absolute assurance that all these papers will be available by tomorrow or Monday at the latest—(HON. MEMBERS: "Too late."]—that really is too late—and that if they are not available in a proper form for the House the debates on Tuesday and Wednesday will be postponed?

Mr. Short

I explained the position about the papers in reply to the Leader of the Opposition. I stick by what I said. The papers will be available. This kind of situation occurred over and over again when the right hon. Gentleman was Leader of the House.

Mr. Prior

That is not true. At least the typed papers were available for debates in this House. We have not even sot available the typed HANSARD of the Committee stage on the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill. It is no good the right hon. Gentleman saying that the papers are or will be available and then, when they are not available, apologising to the House because he has been wrongly informed. We must have these papers before the debates take place. If he cannot ensure that the papers will be available before the debates take place, the only thing to do is to postpone the debates.

Mr. Short

What I said was not quite true. The situation was much worse when the right hon. Gentleman was Leader of the House.

Mr. Tom King

May I ask the Leader of the House, if there is a copy available shortly, to look at last night's proceedings on European papers on the Regional Development Fund? He will see that there was criticism by his hon. Friends as well as by hon. Members on this side of the House of the extraordinary behaviour and attitude of the Secretary of State for Industry. We must have a different system for future debates on these questions.

Mr. Short

That was the first series of debates under the new procedure. We will review what happened last night to see whether we can improve upon it. I agree that there are a number of points to be considered.