CROFTING REFORM (SCOTLAND) BILL (Hansard, 28 January 1974)

§ Mr. William Ross (Kilmarnock)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Order Paper states that this matter is To be decided forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 67(4). That Standing Order is clear. It says: When the order for the second reading of any such bill has been read"— that is, a Scottish Bill considered in principle in the Scottish Grand Committee— a motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown, 'That the Bill be committed to a Scottish Standing Committee ', and the question thereupon shall be put forthwith: Provided that this paragraph shall not apply in the case of any bill to the second reading of which notice of an amendment has been given by not less than six Members". That assumes that six Members will have the time to get together and table a motion.
Consideration of the Bill was concluded in the Scottish Grand Committee only on Thursday, a few hours before the Leader of the House told us what would be the business for this week. This item was not included, so those who heard the Leader of the House and those who read what he said had no reason to think that they needed time to table a motion.
It was not until Friday that the Journal of the House stated that consideration of the Bill had been completed on Thursday and it therefore required that six Members should decide on Friday to table a motion if it was to appear on the Order Paper today. The chances of that were slight, and so this seems to be a denial of the rights of ordinary Members. If a motion had appeared, it would have been a starred motion and, therefore, from the point of view of the Chair, it would have needed to be overlooked.
I am concerned about the fact that the first intimation that any hon. Member, I presume, had of this matter coming up was when he read the Order Paper for today. Therefore, the right of six Members getting together and deciding to table a motion was denied to them. That is an indication that the Government tend to take for granted the right of Members in this matter.
189 Only a certain number of Members are members of the Scottish Grand Committee. Other Members may be waiting to find out about this matter. That is one reason for these rights to be given to six Members. But they have to be given time, otherwise they cannot exercise their right.
The second right is that of members of the Scottish Grand Committee who may be dissatisfied with the Government's handling of the Bill. It is no secret that certain of us were very dissatisfied with the handling of the Bill by the Under-Secretary of State on that occasion. From that point of view, it is not in keeping with the spirit and resolution of the Standing Order that this matter should be brought on quite so soon.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris)
I take the right hon. Gentleman's point quite well. It is not really a question for the Chair to decide because there is no procedural problem as far as the Chair is concerned in this matter. Technically there has been time for it, but practically it may be a different matter. The practical side of it is a matter not for the Chair but for the Government. It is for the Government as to whether they take the necessary steps. It is not for me to adjudicate upon the matter because for the Chair there is no procedural problem in progressing with the motion as it stands on the Order Paper now. Whatever the Government can do, I cannot help the right hon. Gentleman.

§ Mr. Ross
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Who will protect the rights of ordinary back-bench Members of both sides of the House if the Government know quite well that the situation is practically impossible? What is the use of this matter being provided for in Standing Orders if the Government can disregard the practicalities of it? The Leader of the House has a responsibility in this matter. If he had announced last Thursday that the matter was coming up, that would have alerted people to their rights and would have allowed them to exercise them. But he did not do that. From a practical point of view, it is very slick of the Government to do this. It puts the Chair in a difficult position. Technically, Mr. Deputy Speaker, your ruling is correct. From 190 the point of view of the rights of back benchers, however, they have been overridden.
It is right that the matter should be raised, if only to get some explanation from the Government as to why they have done this and to alert the House as to the way, in respect of Second Reading Committees, the Government could behave and could deny back benchers their rights.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Again, I understand exactly what the right hon. Gentleman means, but the terms of the Standing Order, which is what the Chair has to administer, have been carried out. Whether they have been carried out in the spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman would like to see them carried out is not a question for me. I am ordered by the Standing Orders to put this Question forthwith, and I must proceed to do that.

§ Mr. Ross
But realising that the Government are open to the charge of having been far too slick in respect of this matter, surely, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is open to the Government to withdraw this Second Reading motion and to table it again on, for instance, Wednesday.

§ The Under-Secretary of State for Home Affairs and Agriculture, Scottish Office (Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith)
I beg to move.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
The Question is—

§ Mr. Ross
The hon. Gentleman has not moved the motion.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
The motion will have to be moved.

§ Mr. Buchanan-Smith
I beg to move.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that he begs to move, That the Bill be committed to the Scottish Grand Committee?

§ Mr. Buchanan-Smith
I beg to move, That the Bill be committed to a Scottish Standing Committee.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
The Question is, That the Bill be committed to a Scottish Grand Committee.

§ Mr. Ross
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In putting the Question, you said "Grand Committee". The Committee is the Scottish Standing Committee.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. It is the Scottish Standing Committee.