HC Deb 23 January 1974 vol 867 cc1747-52
Mr. Oakes

I beg to move Amendment No. 61, in page 42, line 49, at end insert: '(cc) Section 8 of the Local Government Act 1966 (grants to local authorities in respect of expenditure on public open spaces) to local authorities other than Parish and Community Councils'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

It will be convenient to discuss at the same time Amendment No. 62, in page 43, line 1, leave out 'section 8 or', and Amendment No. 63, in page 43, line 3, leave out 'public open spaces and'.

Mr. Oakes

These amendments are exploratory. The National Playing Fields Association and a number of other bodies are worried at the fact that the specific grant relating to playing fields will be abolished under the Bill. They fear that many councils, especially parish councils and particularly the smaller ones, may seek not to make available playing fields and public open spaces in their areas. We are not so much concerned with the other aspects of the exclusion from specific grants—port health authorities and so on—but we are concerned about playing fields. I hope that the Minister will be able to assure us that playing fields and open spaces will still be provided although the specific grant will disappear. In the light of such an assurance, I hope to be able to withdraw the amendment.

Mr. Graham Page

The general policy behind the new provision for grants in the Bill is that we should as much as possible move to the general grant, the block grant, leaving the local authorities to decide how to spend it. Of course, within the relevant expenditure one must include expenditure on the subjects of these grants in future years. This is certainly the intention in our usual discussions with the local authority associations, so that we take into account the global expenditure on such facilities as open space and include that in the relevant expenditure. The percentage contribution is then made against that relevant expenditure and the local authorities will be at liberty to decide for themselves how the money is spent.

It will be for those interested in playing fields to make their representations locally to the local authorities for such open spaces and playing fields as are required within their area. It is right that this should be directed locally and not centrally. This is the basis of the removal of these grants into the global grant in the rate support grant, in so far as it is current expenditure. So far as it is capital expenditure, it may come within the locally-determined schemes allocation of money which local authorities can borrow in the normal way.

The whole idea is to leave the local authorities with the discretion, so that those who are interested in a particular subject can make their representations locally to those who know the local requirements far better than central Government. On those grounds I should have to resist the amendment, but I hope that I have satisfied the hon. Member.

I should mention a technical point in connection with the notional loans borrowed by local authorities in earlier years which, it might seem, cannot be taken into account by way of the special grant for future years. This point was raised in a recent letter from the County Councils Association, which said: A positive assurance was given to Berkshire County Council that the Government would continue to pay grant towards the notional loan charges on acquisitions of land completed prior to 1st April 1974. The wording of the Bill is such that the blanket provision of no grant being payable for 1974–75 and subsequently is applied to several different types of grant—e.g., capital and revenue grants. The association sought an assurance that in that type of grant the payment would continue.

My hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Construction replied on 23rd July: I am now able to assure you that where such grants are being paid on a loan charge basis, we intend that payment should continue after 31st March. I put that on record because there has been some doubt about it. I hope that my other remarks will have satisfied the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Oakes

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Mr. James Tinn (Cleveland)

The Minister's reply was most disappointing from the parish councils' point of view. The right hon. Gentleman's faith in local democracy working in the way he suggested from 1st April, bearing in mind that we shall then be dealing with very large authorities, and his conviction that these new large authorities will so conduct themselves so that small parishes will never feel dissatisfied over the provision of recreation areas and playing fields, illustrates an optimism that I cannot share.

Up to now parishes received or were able to receive a direct grant from the Department of the Environment. Now, they will be entirely dependent on whatever the local authority might choose to give them. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to be expressing confidence that this will work out very well. I am not so sure. It would be a much better expression of local democracy if the money were paid directly to the parishes so that they could use it as they thought best.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)

I agree with every word spoken by the hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. Tinn). As he clearly indicated, these grants for recreational facilities and playing fields were formerly paid directly to the parish council or the community council, but this will no longer be the case. What assurance will my right hon. Friend give that the district councils which will receive the grants will be prepared to pay part of the rate grant to the parish or community council for the provision of those facilities?

I am afraid I do not have the same confidence in the new district councils that my right hon. Friend perhaps feels. Parish councils, which have done a wonderful job for many years, will lose their ability to provide facilities for individual community areas and they will be put at a severe disadvantage. I hope that my right hon. Friend will look still further at the problem.

I feel most strongly about the matter and I am sorry that there are not more people here to raise it now. The whole concept of local government seems to have been based on size and my right hon. Friend seems to feel that size creates efficiency. I do not agree. As has already been stated in the debate, local government will cost ratepayers and taxpayers considerably more after reorganisation than it ever did before and that is a great shame. I hope that my right hon. Friend will seriously consider this and it will be regrettable if the Opposition ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Mr. Oakes

With the leave of the House may I say that like the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) and my hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland (Mr. Tinn), I am most sympathetic to the rôle played by parish councils. That is why the amendment was put down. The parish councils, the National Playing Fields Association and bodies concerned with providing sporting facilities are worried for precisely the reasons my lion. Friend and the hon. Member mentioned—that some district councils will not make the provision within the parishes that the parish council, with the assistance of the specific grants, makes today.

For the purposes of our proceedings I was prepared to withdraw the amendment, but I endorse what has been said on both sides and I urge the Minister to ensure that this matter is examined again in another place. Parish councils have few powers but those they possess they exercise extremely well. They are the most democratic aspect of local government in Britain. They represent true and genuine local democracy. They fear for the loss of this grant, particularly by those parishes which will find themselves in metropolitan districts merged with authorities which do not have experience of parish councils. They do not know the powers of parish councils or the rôle which they play in the community.

8.45 p.m.

I hold the view, and I am sure that both my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Macclesfield do, too, that we ought to be considering ways and means of extending the parish council system into the towns. It seems to me essential to do that considering the complexity of local government structure, so that we have a coherent voice from the parish councils which are not bodies under pressure but are democratically elected groups. One of their few functions was to provide playing fields.

I shall possibly disappoint the hon. Member for Macclesfield, but I shall seek to withdraw the amendment in the hope that another like it may be proposed in another place where parish councils have many friends. I hope that an amendment will be pressed in another place so that this power—one of the few that parish councils have—may be retained and open spaces and playing fields may be provided by them, and that the parish councils will not be squeezed out by the larger district councils which do not understand, perhaps, the simple, domestic, every-day requirements of people in the parishes, such as playing fields. The larger councils think of perhaps larger matters, but district councils think of the immediate needs of the communities.

Mr. Graham Page

I trust I may be allowed to reply to the points which have been made. My hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) said that I thought that size was of the greatest value. I said nothing about the size of authorities. I have just as much confidence in parish councils as I have in district councils. I did not say anything about size.

My hon. Friend asked me for an undertaking that I would ensure that district councils would see that the money would go to the parish councils. Of course I can give no such undertaking. District councils are not responsible to me or to my right hon. and learned Friend or the Government or Whitehall. They are responsible to their electors.

The hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) said that parish councils had few powers. They have immensely increased powers under the Local Government Act 1972 and very much more money to spend on those powers. I thought that I had at least shown my friendship to parish councils by extending the successor parishes within the towns. The hon. Member is quite right in thinking that the next step is parish councils within the cities—within the built-up areas. This must come steadily with the development of local government.

I am sorry if I sound a little emotional about this, but I do not like being accused of not being a friend of parish councils after all that we have done for parishes in local government reorganisation.

Mr. Oakes

With the leave of the House, I would just point out that I did not accuse the right hon. Gentleman of that for a moment. I know his views on that matter.

In the hope that this matter may be pursued in another place, and without any criticism of the right hon. Gentleman, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Strictly speaking, it cannot be withdrawn now, because the hon. Member withdrew it before, but he did not see, as I saw, that the hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. Tinn) was on his feet to speak to the amendment, and so I called him. However, in all the circumstances, in this case I think we will overlook the rule.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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