§ Mr. OakesI beg to move amendment No. 10, in page 21, line 21, at end insert:
(f) any structure within the hereditament provided or adapted exclusively to assist a disabled person.The Minister will remember that in Committee I moved an amendment seeking to exempt from rates those parts of a household that had been provided as a result of adaptations specifically for the use of a disabled person. That amendment was favourably received by the Minister. There were technical objections to it in that I had mentioned equipment provided under the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, which was incorrect because the equipment is provided under other measures. I have endeavoured to be even more simple in this amendment. Its object is clear and I do not need to spend a great deal of time explaining it. I feel sure that all hon. Members will give it support.Under Clause 19 and under the principal Act—the 1967 General Rate Act—certain exemptions can be made, for example for a garage or a garage site provided for the use of a disabled person. That is right and proper. Since 1967 we have considered many other matters which are not amenities but which are essentials for a disabled person. I have in mind such things as a lift which enables a disabled person to move up and down stairs. Under current legislation such an installation would add to the rateable value of the house because it is an improvement.
When such an improvement is made exclusively to help a disabled person, it is wrong that that person should be penalised through having to pay higher rates. There are many other such adaptations which are made exclusively to assist disabled persons. Under the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons 1716 Act applications can be made to the local social services department for a downstairs room to be made into a bathroom and toilet for the benefit of a disabled person who cannot use stairs. Adaptations can be made to widen doors enabling wheelchairs to pass through them. Sometimes sliding doors are fitted in place of doors with knobs which an arthritic person cannot turn. All of these may be minor matters but they can amount to an upward revaluation of the property.
My hon Friend the Member for Eccles (Mr. Carter-Jones) is well known for his concern for the disabled and no doubt, if he succeeds in catching your eye, Mr. Speaker, he will be able to speak with detailed knowledge of such improvements. I am sure he will want to talk about central heating. Sometimes a doctor may recommend that it is essential that some form of central heating is provided for a disabled person. That is a classic example of how there can be a revaluation of the property, even taking into account the provisions of the Bill.
We say that when such an adaptation is made exclusively for the benefit of a disabled person, it ought to be excluded from rating calculations. Since the passage of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act we have shown a greater concern for the need to provide adaptations which make the life of a disabled person worth living. It is wrong that, having made such adaptations, a disabled person, who can least afford it, should be penalised by having to pay increased rates.
I know that the Minister is sympathetic to this. I appreciate that my amendment is rude and homespun. It may not meet the legal requirements of the parliamentary draftsmen. If it does not and if the Minister will say that he is prepared to introduce an amendment in another place embodying the spirit of my amendment, I will willingly withdraw it. In view of his own sympathy and concern for disabled persons, which is shared by all hon. Members, I hope that he will be able to make some provision so that such persons can at least be relieved of an increased rate burden as a result of making adaptations to their homes. This is the time to take such a step.
§ Mr. Lewis Carter-Jones (Eccles)My hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) has put forward a good argument. I want to refer specifically to one organisation which could obtain considerable benefit from the amendment. It is called Habinteg and it represents the Spastic Society's attempt to obtain housing for disabled people under housing association provisions. It is responsible for building 20 to 30 homes, a limited number of which are made available to the disabled. Such schemes would be helped tremendously if the amendment were accepted.
My hon. Friend called it a homespun amendment which came from the heart. It is basically a good amendment. If the phraseology is not acceptable to the Minister, I hope he will indicate that he is prepared in another place to have this point included in the Bill.
The people from Habinteg have assured me that all too often improvements and adaptations to property can send up the rateable value. I am sure that the House never intended to put double burdens on disability. Disability is itself sufficient handicap to a person's capacity to earn or conserve money.
7.0 p.m.
congratulate the Minister on what he has included in the clause. He has gone a long way to deal with this point, and the proposal will be welcomed by the Opposition. We ask the hon. Gentleman to accept the amendment or give an assurance that a similar amendment will be made in another place, so that the whole range is covered. My hon. Friend the Member for Widnes has tried to embrace all categories. In an age of advancing technology it will be possible to modify homes in such a way that at a valuation thereafter the rateable value will be increased substantially. It would be dreadful if, as a result of modifying a home to enable a disabled person to live freely, away from hospitals or institutions and with his family, the value of the property was enhanced, thus increasing the burden on those living there. I am sure that that is not what the Minister intended.
I make a plea from the heart to the hon. Gentleman to accept the amendment. The wider the provision is, the better. I appreciate that Governments hate making provisions too wide, because 1718 it is felt that unscrupulous people will, so to speak, drive horses and carts through the regulations. But the amendment, or a redrafted version, would provide much relief for people who are suffering unnecessarily.
Provision of heating in a property is needed for not only the disabled but the elderly and aged. Everyone is deeply conscious of the threat to the elderly from hypothermia. We should not do anything to restrict local authorities, housing authorities, charities or individuals from improving properties to make life easier for the elderly and disabled, so that they do not have to live in institutions and can thus be independent of society. Anything which can be done to assist them would be welcomed on both sides of the House.
Although this is not the basis of my argument, I believe that the Minister, if he accepts the amendment, will be saving substantial sums of money for the Government. If people can be kept out of institutions and hospitals, vast sums will be saved. The disabled would not be the only people to gain. We must think also of those who look after, nurse or sustain the disabled. Such financial relief would be of great benefit to them.
I urge the Minister to accept the amendment or give the undertaking for which my hon. Friend has asked. It would be an honest gesture on the part of the Government. It would be welcomed by the disabled, voluntary societies and local authorities at a time when social services departments are becoming increasingly worried about the impact of cuts in spending to help the disabled. A gesture tonight would be very welcome and would give a reassurance that the Government have in mind the interests of a substantial number of people.
The cost of modifying homes will rise rapidly from time to time. Environmental controllers when installed in homes are so valuable that they are bound to enhance the value of the properties. It would be terrible to impose double taxation on those least able to pay. I urge the hon. Gentleman to accept the amendment or give an assurance that he will introduce a modified version of it in another place in a way acceptable to the House.
§ Mr. RossiThe hon. Members for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) and Eccles (Mr. Carter-Jones) have raised a matter of great importance, which strikes chords of sympathy throughout the House. The Government would not be slow to respond to such pleas to help the disabled and would agree with the amendment if it were necessary. But I have been advised that it is unnecessary because instances such as those mentioned, in which no account should be taken of improvements or adaptations for rating valuation purposes, are covered by Section 45 of the General Rate Act 1967. This gives rate relief in respect of certain facilities for disabled persons by providing that no account shall be taken of those facilities in ascertaining the gross value of the hereditament.
I am advised that the wording of the section is sufficient to cover exemptions for matters such as provision of lifts, wider corridors, special doors and other special facilities which the disabled may require. Therefore it seems unnecessary to bring in additional legislation to meet a provision which already exists.
§ Mr. Carter-JonesDoes that mean that the legislation to which the hon. Gentleman has referred will cover heating as well? That was one of our valid points. As I understand it, installation of heating facilities tends to attract revaluation. Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance about this?
§ Mr. RossiThe test in that case, as in all the instances I have mentioned, must be that the adaptation is for the benefit of the disabled. If particular heating requirements were recommended because of the disablement involved, I am sure that the legislation I have mentioned would cover it. If there are any individual questions of doubt as to whether a particular matter falls within Section 45, I am sure that my right hon. Friend will be prepared to consider them and see that relief is given. I give that assurance on behalf of the Government.
The problem about the amendment is that it is drawn in such wide terms and goes far beyond the case which has been made out. If implemented, it would enable a theatre, for example, to gain rating relief if it installed a ramp for wheelchairs for the disabled. One hopes that 1720 theatres are sufficiently public-minded to provide that facility without having to be given the inducement of escaping rating. The amendment could lead to complications which I am sure the Opposition would not wish to see introduced into our rating system, involving the granting of exemption to commercial property——
§ Mr. Timothy Sainsbury (Hove)Am I correct in assuming that under other legislation theatres would have to install ramps to permit access by the disabled, as would other premises used for commercial purposes?
§ Mr. RossiThere is provision for such a requirement to be made, I believe, particularly under byelaws. If such a requirement were applied, it would be unnecessary to give the owners or occupiers of premises the incentive of rating relief, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the point.
Having been told that Section 45 is so wide as to cover disablement, hon. Members may ask why we have the clause, giving an exemption. The reason is that Section 45 refers specifically to garages for invalid cars. The exemption there relates to the garages but not to the sites on which they are built. Until the revaluation last year that created no problem, because the sites were of such little value that they were of no consequence in the valuation. But since revaluation some of the sites have too high a value to be ignored, and the valuation officer would have to take it into account in his new valuation unless we provided an additional exemption. That is the object of the clause. It is in line with the Government's wish to extend exemptions to the disabled wherever they appear necessary.
We have been advised by our legal advisers that the amendment is unnecessary because it is already covered by Section 45.
§ Mr. OakesI should like to consider in much greater detail what the Minister has just told us. I was under the impression that Section 45 of the principal Act related almost exclusively to garages and garage sites.
When I moved a similar amendment in Committee I received a different reply from the Under-Secretary who was dealing 1721 with the Committee stage. The hon. Gentleman told me on 4th December:
The other limb is to extend the exemption to any other structure within the hereditament provided for the disabled person. The difficulty here is that we are all together in spirit, but the provision extends the scope widely.To judge by what the Minister has told us tonight, however, nothing could be wider than Section 45. His hon. Friend also said in Committee, on a different but kindred matter:I should like to look into the matter and I will do so, but if it is put that way, a concert hall or theatre, or any other public place providing, as I hope they all will provide, facilities for the disabled person, such as a ramp or a toilet, would be out of rating. That would not be right for large places. We ought not to be providing incentives to theatres and concert halls to put in help for the disabled ; it should be regarded as an absolutely normal part of the design.If concert halls, theatres and other places put in assistance for the disabled, they, too, should not be rated on it, any more than a dwelling house should be, because they are providing a public service at their own cost, for very small return as a general rule. They do it out of public-spiritedness, to assist disabled people. I agree that one would expect them to do it anyway, but, having done it, they should not be rated for performing a public service.The Under-Secretary also said in Committee:
The hon. Gentleman"—he was referring to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell)—is absolutely right. The problem is to draw lines. Manifestly a lift adds materially to the value of the property and when a disabled person ceases to live there it would be a real asset for another person. It therefore cannot be right to exempt lifts as such. It depends on what the lifts are used for but here again there is a difficulty. There may be times when the hon. Gentleman and I wish there were a lift instead of stairs which we have to walk up to the Committee, but I do not think we would regard that as a reason for derating a lift in our own homes."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A, 4th December 1973 ; c. 297–9.]Of course, I would not regard that as a reason for derating a lift in someone's own home, but do valuers argue that although a moving staircase is provided for the assistance of a disabled person you and I might use it as well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and that therefore it must be 1722 rated? Are they interpreting the spirit as well as the letter of Section 45?7.15 p.m.
Organisations for disabled people are not at all happy about the operation of Section 45, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eccles (Mr. Carter-Jones) knows, having gone into the problems of disablement a great deal more than I have. He can reflect the concern of those organisations on the matter.
Although I thought that Section 45 related almost exclusively to garages, and not such things as lifts, the Under-Secretary has the benefit of advice from the Box, and I do not have a copy of the Act with me. If central heating is provided to prevent hypothermia, as a medical requirement to cater for the person who cannot have a gas, coal or oil fire because of the possible fumes, I suppose that it could be argued that other members of the family also enjoy the heat and that therefore the central heating should be rated. But basically it has been provided for the disabled person.
I am not happy about the dichotomy of reply on the same point between one Under-Secretary and another. If my amendment is so harmless and states only what the present law is, there will not be the slightest harm if it goes into the Bill as well as being in the 1969 Act, for the sake of clarification.
In the clause the Government have made various amendments to the 1967 Act. It was apparently necessary to spell things out in this omnibus addition to Section 45. Let us spell out the amendment as well, so that there is no doubt in the minds of valuation officers, councils or anyone else that any equipment provided for a disabled person is derated because it is so provided. I see no harm in the amendment being included.
§ Mr. Carter-JonesWith the leave of the House, I should like to speak again.
What causes me great concern is that valuation officers tend to be independent people. When we make inquiries we are told that they are completely independent and can do what they like.
The National Health Service supplies Possum equipment which allows disabled people, even those who are paralysed, to draw their curtains or lower the window from their bed. The official mind 1723 of a district valuer is such that he will say that such equipment is an absolute luxury, but for a disabled person it is a necessity. If the district valuer assesses it for valuation purposes and thus increases the valuation of the house, the disabled person, with what the majority of hon. Members would describe as a necessity, will find himself paying more rates.
The hon. Gentleman was helpful and forthcoming but a little hesitant when he talked about heating for the disabled and the elderly. Heating is essential for the elderly. Is the Minister prepared to say that central heating installed for an elderly person to prevent hypothermia will be exempted?
§ Mr. RossiThere is no real difference of intention between the two sides of the House. Hon. Gentlemen wish for adaptations to the homes of the disabled not to be taken into account for rating purposes. That is our wish also. The difference between us is that. I have, as a Minister, received advice that that desire is already met by legislation. I must follow the advice that I am given and urge the House to accept that advice. That is what I am doing, no more and no less.
The hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) asked what was the harm in accepting the amendment if the point was
| Division No. 36.] | AYES | [7.24 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Dormand, J. D. | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Dunn, James A. | Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) |
| Austick, David | Evans, Fred | Kaufman, Gerald |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Faulds, Andrew | Kelley, Richard |
| Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton) | Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. | Kerr, Russell |
| Beaney, Alan | Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood) | Lamborn, Harry |
| Beith, A. J. | Fitch, Alan (Wlgan) | Lamond, James |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Lawson, George |
| Bishop, E. S. | Ford, Ben | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Galpern, Sir Myer | Leonard, Dick |
| Booth, Albert | Gilbert, Dr. John | Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Goldlng, John | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) |
| Brown, Robert C. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne, W.) | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) |
| Buchan, Norman | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | McBride, Neil |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | MacDonald, Mrs. Margo |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) | Mackenzie, Gregor |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Hardy, Peter | Mackie, John |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Heffer, Eric S. | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Hooson, Emlyn | Marks, Kenneth |
| Cronin, John | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Marsden, F. |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Marshall, Dr. Edmund |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.) | Hunter, Adam | Mayhew, Christopher |
| Dalyell, Tarn | Janner, Greville | Meacher, Michael |
| Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Deakins, Eric | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | John, Brynmor | Mitchell. R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) |
| Delargy, Hugh | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) |
§ already covered in another Act. I thought that I had made clear the objection to that. The amendment goes far beyond adaptations to the homes of the disabled. The hon. Gentleman said that theatres and all other public places which made adaptations for the disabled should receive rating exemptions. That would be to carry the exemptions to extremes. It is neither in the interests of individual disabled persons nor of disabled persons as a class for such an exemption to be given. They would not be affected financially by the exemption. It would merely affect financially the commercial undertaking. We wish, by means of other legislation or byelaws, to impose an obligation on public places to provide such facilities without financial inducement. We hope that those who run theatres and other public places will wish to provide that service willingly and voluntarily without having to be offered a financial inducement.
§ If there is a difference between us on the amendment, it is only on that narrow point. If hon. Gentlemen wish to press the amendment simply on that narrow point, I am obliged to advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to resist it.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 133, Noes 156.
| Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Murray, Ronald King | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) | Wallace, George |
| Oakes, Gordon | Silverman, Julius | Watkins, David |
| Ogden, Eric | Skinner, Dennis | Weitzman, David |
| O'Halloran, Michael | Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) | Wellbeloved, James |
| O'Malley, Brian | Spriggs, Leslie | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Orbach, Maurice | Stallard, A. W. | Whitlock, William |
| Orme, Stanley | Steel, David | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) | Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Palmer, Arthur | Stoddart, David (Swindon) | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Parker, John (Dagenham) | Stott, Roger | Woof, Robert |
| Radice, Giles | Taverne, Dick | |
| Reed, D. (Sedgefield) | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) | Tinn, James | Mr. Ernest G. Perry and |
| Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Tope, Graham | Mr. Joseph Harper. |
| Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) | Varley, Eric G. |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Hall, Sir John (Wycombe) | Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby) |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Parkinson, Cecil |
| Astor, John | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Percival, Ian |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Haselhurst, Alan | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Awdry, Daniel | Hawkins, Paul | Pounder, Rafton |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Hayhoe, Barney | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Hicks, Robert | Price, David (Eastlelgh) |
| Benyon, W. | Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) | Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. |
| Bidwell, Sydney | S. James A.(Southampton, Test) | Raison, Timothy |
| Biffen, John | Holland, Philip | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Holt, Miss Mary | Redmond, Robert |
| Boscawen, Hn. Robert | Hordern, Peter | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn, Dame Patricia | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Bowden, Andrew | Howell, David (Guildford) | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Bray, Ronald | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Hunt, John | Rost, Peter |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Sainsbury, Timothy |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Scott, Nicholas |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Jenkin, Rt. Hn. Patrick (Woodford) | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Jopling, Michael | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Jopling, Michael | Smith, Dudley (W'wlck & L'mlngton) |
| Churchill, W. S. | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Soref, Harold |
| Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine | Speed, Keith |
| Clegg, Walter | Kimball, Marcus | Spence, John |
| Cockeram, Eric | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Stainton, Keith |
| Cooke, Robert | Kinsey, J. R. | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Cooper, A. E. | Kirk, Peter | Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper) |
| Corfield, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Stodart, Rt. Hon. Anthony |
| Cormack, Patrick | Lamont, Norman | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| d'Avlgdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James | Lane, David | Sutcliffe, John |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Dixon Piers | Le Marchant, Spencer | Tebbit, Norman |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Loveridge, John | Temple, John M. |
| Emery, Peter | Luce, R. N. | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Eyre, Reginald | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Trew, Peter |
| Fell, Anthony | MacArthur, Ian | Waddington, David |
| Fidler, Michael | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel (Surbiton) | Maginnls, John E. | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Mawby, Ray | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Foster, Sir John | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Fowler, Norman | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Fry, Peter | Miscampbell, Norman | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Moate, Roger | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Glyn, Dr. Alan | Molyneaux, James | Wilkinson, John |
| Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Goodhart, Philip | Monro, Hector | Younger, Hn. George |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | Montgomery, Fergus | |
| Gray, Hamish | Morrison, Charles | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Green, Alan | Neave, Airey | Mr. John Stradling Thomas and |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Normanton, Tom | Mr. Marcus Fox. |
| Grylls, Michael | Onslow, Cranley |
§ Question accordingly negatived.