HC Deb 05 February 1974 vol 868 cc1176-83

Queen's Recommendation having been signified—

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to extend the functions of the Housing Corporation and to provide for the registration of, and the giving of financial assistance to, certain housing associations, to make provision for housing action areas and to make further provision in relation to general improvement areas, to provide for the making of grants towards the improvement, repair and provision of housing accommodation and for the compulsory improvement of such accommodation, to make provision concerning unoccupied office premises, to amend the law relating to expenditure by local authorities and other bodies in connection with the provision and improvement of housing accommodation and of hostels and to amend the Housing Finance Act 1972, it is expedient to authorise—

  1. (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any sums required for the payment, in pursuance of the said Act,—
    1. (a) of grants to registered housing associations,
    2. (b) of grants to housing authorities in Scotland in respect of expenditure on housing projects relating to hostels,
    3. (c) of contributions to local authorities in respect of expenditure incurred by them in making certain grants and in giving assistance towards the carrying out of works to the exterior of buildings,
    4. (d) of contributions to local authorities and certain other bodies having housing functions in respect of expenses incurred by them in providing and improving dwellings in circumstances where a grant might be paid under the said Act to a private individual, and
    5. (e) of salaries and other remuneration to members of the Housing Associations Registration Advisory Committee;
  2. (2) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any administrative expenses of the Secretary of State attributable to the said Act and of any other outgoings of the Secretary of State attributable to provisions of the said Act relating to unoccupied office premises;
  3. (3) any increase attributable to the said Act in the sums payable out of money provided by Parliament or out of the National Loans Fund under any other Act;
  4. (4) the issue out of the National Loans Funds of any sums necessary to enable the Secretary of State to make:
    1. (a) loans under any provision of the said Act to the Housing Corporation, and
    2. (b) payments to the Housing Corporation of any sums necessary to enable the Corporation to meet any obligation arising by virtue of a guarantee given by them under any provision of the said Act;
  5. (5) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required by the Treasury for fulfilling any guarantee given by them under any provision of the said Act in respect of sums borrowed by the Housing Corporation; and
  6. (6) the payment into any Public Fund of any sums falling to be so paid by virtue of the said Act.—[Mr. Eyre.]

10.12 p.m.

Mr. Frank McElhone (Glasgow, Gorbals)

In my speech on the Bill I mentioned the £6 million allocated for Scotland, and I had hoped that my question would be answered. But the Secretary of State, who is now leaving the House, did not answer any points. There is serious anxiety among housing associations and local authorities that the Goschen formula, which was a way of working out finance in the past, is not applied in the Bill. It worked on the basis of 11/80ths, which under the Bill would have given Scotland £11 million instead of £6 million.

I said that the amount allocated to Scotland is totally inadequate, and the fact that Glasgow alone and even my constituency alone could spend £6 million in housing action areas shows that this puny sum is a disgrace to offer to Scotland. The Bill will mean nothing to local authorities and housing associations. If the Housing Corporation does come into Scotland in a big way, the finances available will be totally inadequate.

Can I be assured that this is the minimum sum and that the Goschen formula will be returned to? Can I be assured that this is only an assessment by the Treasury, and that, in view of the anxieties of local authorities and housing assocations, which I hope will extend into Scotland, the Minister will look favourably on increasing the allocation? We want a spread of housing in Scotland, not just council housing.

10.15 p.m.

Mr. William Ross (Kilmarnock)

I wonder if the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland could give us any indication of the extent to which the moneys will be spent and how much will be in Scotland. It is a pity we have to do it in this way but that is one of the difficulties with a Bill which is at least two Bills, for there are about 30 clauses in Part VI which have nothing to do with Scotland, and that is followed by 11 clauses which are purely Scottish. This makes for very bad legislation. [Interruption.] I am competing with another meeting going on just outside the Chamber, I think, but I have made a suggestion which I mean seriously.

We could take many of these points in Committee, but there will be little opportunity for us to do so in a Committee which is a United Kingdom Committee. It would be advisable to excise the Scottish clauses and put them to the Scottish Committee where these matters could be raised. That has been done more than once—when Mr. Speaker was Leader of the House and when Iain Macleod was Leader of the House. It was done with the Police Bill and the Children and Young Persons Bill—so much so that we were invited to take even more time than we asked for. We keep faith in any promises we make in that respect and I hope that this suggestion will be conveyed to the Leader of the House.

There is the matter of the expenditure of the Housing Corporation. It has not been very active in Scotland and we have had one or two complaints about some of the people acting for the corporation. I should like to know how much money will be spent in that sphere in Scotland.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Gorbals (Mr. McElhone) is concerned about the total. So far as I can see from the Money Resolution there is no limitation. It says: the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any sums required… . Does that mean that the sky is the limit and that the figure given in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum to the Bill, the £6 million, is a guess? Can we have the assurance that there is nothing in the Bill to tie us to £6 million and that the Government will do everything they can to ensure that that is increased?

They must have some idea of likely expenditure. How did they come to the figure of £6 million? I should like to know how it is broken up between the items in (1)(a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) in the Money Resolution—for instance, grants to registered housing associations.

We have already got a housing association in Scotland, the Scottish Special Housing Association, and we have had it for nearly 40 years. I do not want to shock hon. Members on the Government side but I would point out that that association has power to build houses and it has its own labour force. It has certain responsibilities for building in areas where it is difficult to get local authorities to do so. It does experimental work. I am surprised that the English have not caught on to that in relation to the needs in London and special areas in their country. I should like to be told whether this Bill will in any way affect the Scottish Special Housing Association, with respect to additional grants and how much they may be. The same question arises on paragraph (1)(b), (c), (d), (e). I want to know how the £6 million is to be broken up among those items authorising expenditure.

If there is anything in this Money Resolution to restrict us in any way will the Government give us a pledge that if they find that it is restrictive—although I personally do not see it as being so — they will be prepared to introduce a new Money Resolution?

10.19 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Development, Scottish Office (Mr. Edward Taylor) I am grateful for having the opportunity of doing my best to answer the points which the hon. Member for Glasgow, Gorbals (Mr. McElhone) and the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) have put to us.

To deal first with the Money Resolution itself, it sets out in paragraph (1) the objects on which money may be spent. It provides for payments approved by Parliament, first, of grants to registered housing associations, and I will say a little more later about that in view of the right hon. Gentleman's intervention.

Another item is grants to Scottish housing authorities for the provision of hostels as set out in Clause 123. There are contributions to local authorities in respect of their expenditure on house improvement as set out in Parts VI and VII, and curtilage grants in housing action areas.

Fourthly, there are contributions towards expenditure by housing authorities for converting and improving their own houses. This is covered in Clause 73, and, for Scotland, in Schedule 11. Lastly, there are salaries and other remuneration to members of the Housing Associations Registration Advisory Committee.

As to the difference between Scotland and England, it is fair to say that we are starting off from a different situation. The Money Resolution and the estimates refer to additional expenditure. For example, we have made rather dramatic progress—

Mr. Ross

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I asked only for information. I did not ask for a Second Reading speech.

Mr. Taylor

Since the right hon. Gentleman does not want a Second Reading speech or a detailed answer to the points he has raised may I say simply, as he asked me a simple question, that the figures of £6 million and £100 million are not restrictive figures but simply estimates. They are not a firm limit of any sort. There are many reasons for this and I was prepared to give them, but as the right hon. Gentleman has asked me not do this I will simply say that this is an estimate and not a specific ceiling. The Money Resolution says that any moneys required by the powers in the Act will be covered. I hope that that satisfies the right hon. Gentleman.

Question put and agreed to.

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