NORTHERN IRELAND (YOUTH EMPLOYMENT SERVICE)

HC Deb 12 December 1974 vol 883 cc940-68

12.5 a.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. John Concannon)

I beg to move, That the Youth Employment Service (Northern Ireland) Order 1974, a draft of which was laid before this House on 5th December, be approved. The main effect of the order will be to provide for the dissolution of the Youth Employment Service Board for Northern Ireland, the transfer of its staff to the Department of Manpower Services and the establishment of a Youth Careers Guidance Committee. Its underlying purpose is to achieve improvements in the facilities for career guidance and placement in employment that are available to young people in Northern Ireland. I am sure that hon. Members will agree that this is a most important objective.

The order follows recommendations made by a working party consisting of representatives of the Northern Ireland Departments of Education and Manpower Services, which was established to review arrangements for the services at present undertaken by the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service and related services. The working party completed its report in March of this year. My right hon. Friend accepted the recommendations which it made, after a period of consultation with interested persons and bodies.

To date, the Youth Employment Service in Northern Ireland has been provided, as a service separate from the General Employment Services, under the Youth Employment Service Act (Northern Ireland) 1961. Responsibility for the service has been vested in a board, with members representing both educational and industrial interests, which was responsible to the Department of Education. The board has had the duty of providing facilities and services to help young people under the age of 18, and those over that age who were still attending school, to find suitable employment, and to help employers to recruit suitable staff from amongst these young people. The board worked through a network of offices throughout the Province from which professional youth employment officers worked in close cooperation with the schools in their area and with the advice of local Youth Employment Committees. Certain support services were provided by the board's headquarters in Belfast.

The development of the Youth Employment Service under the arrangements which I have described was hindered by certain operational difficulties and other inhibiting factors. The working party to which I have referred identified a need for the greater development of careers guidance services within schools themselves. It proposed that schools should have teachers with appropriate specialist training who would hold specific responsibility for the provision of careers education and information and personal guidance and who would be supported by outside expertise. The working party found also that in the absence of such facilities Youth Employment Service officers had been obliged to spend a disproportionate amount of their time on careers guidance as opposed to placement services. In consequence, those officers had, as a rule, insufficient time to devote to contacts with industry, which in turn prevented their obtaining sufficiently detailed knowledge of national and local employment opportunities.

Moreover, the board, as a separate statutory body, was divorced from the main stream of expertise in, and knowledge of, the employment field, this being the responsibility of the Department of Manpower Services with which it had no direct link. In addition, the statutory age limit of 18 years had caused an unnatural break in the continuity of guidance provided for young persons and compounded the difficulty of securing effective follow-up and validation of placements in employment. Further, the existence of the service as a small separate body meant that the amount of training that could be provided for staff was limited, and prospects for promotion were unduly restricted. These factors had contributed to staffing difficulties which meant a lack of essential continuity in the services given to many young people, and the size of the service had led to an inability to develop adequate research and other facilities.

What I have said in no way detracts from the value of the service rendered by the Youth Employment Service Board. I should like to pay tribute to the board and its staff. It has faced many difficulties—not least of which has been the fact that in recent years there have been a number of terrorist bomb attacks on its premises. Despite these difficulties it provided great assistance to young people and succeeded in placing many thousands of them in employment. However, the Youth Employment Service as hitherto constituted was not in a position to provide all the facilities that could be made available to young people through the Department of Manpower Services. The working party recommended—

Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

I am interested in what the Minister says, although I do not accept it, of course. I am not in favour of the Common Market, but what he is proposing is contrary to what has been advocated inside the EEC. Why should Northern Ireland be different from the world trend?

Mr. Concannon

There are plenty of precedents for legislation which is peculiar to Northern Ireland. This started with complaints and suggestions in Northern Ireland which were taken up after a great deal of consultation. The hon. Member had a copy of the report in March this year. For him to come along now—

Mr. Kilfedder

This is the only debate we have.

Mr. Concannon

I am sure that the hon. Member will remember where he was in March. A copy of the report was supplied to him and there have been many opportunities for consultation. We have probably consulted Northern Ireland to death on this issue. We can debate the matter afterwards, since he is probably looking at me in disbelief. I do not know what happened—perhaps he used the fast filing system in the Tea Room.

As I was saying, the working party recommended and the Government accepted—after, as I have said, due consultation—that the board should be stood down and that its staff should become part of an all-age guidance and placement unit which is being established within the Department. It proposed also that a Youth Careers Guidance Committee should be established with the functions of reviewing, and advising departments about, the careers available to young people, with reference inter alia to the links between careers guidance in schools and the placement services for school leavers.

As an interim measure, following the acceptance of the working party's recommendations, the existing responsibilities at departmental level were transferred from the Department of Education to the Department of Manpower Services with effect from 30th September 1974. The second and main stage of the implementation, of the recommendations is the subject of the draft order now before the House.

Article 3 of the order, which provides for the dissolution of the Youth Employment Service Board on a day to be appointed by order, is a central provision of the order. Article 4 provides for the transfer of officers of the Youth Employment Service Board to the Department of Manpower Services and, together with Article 5, enshrines undertakings designed to protect their interests after transfer. Article 7 of the order provides for the establishment of the Youth Careers Guidance Committee which I have described. The remaining provisions of the order are consequential to those which I have already examined.

Taken as a whole, the order will, I believe, open the way for the development of a better employment service for young persons. I commend it to the House.

12.15 a.m.

Mr. McCusker (Armagh)

My hon. Friends and I view the order with grave reservations. We treat all of it very seriously. It was interesting that in the opening portion of his speech the Minister was prepared to state for the first time his true reasons for the destruction of the Youth Employment Service in Northern Ireland. I am sure that some of the members of the service will read his comments with interest.

This is an important piece of legislation. It destroys the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service as we know it. It does away at one sweep with 13 years of work. Not only that, it sets Northern Ireland on a course not only different from Europe but different from the rest of the United Kingdom. We are denied the opportunity to amend the order. We have to rubber stamp it. I do not want to dwell in detail on procedural matters. Some of my colleagues will be able to deal with procedure later.

We consider that it is important that we are given the maximum notice of orders such as this so that we can arrange consultation and make the necessary inquiries. We are then in a position to discuss matters with our constituents and other interested parties at home. In this instance I did not have that opportunity.

I congratulate the Minister on making his point about the working party. But I am not a member of the Assembly and I did not have the information made available to me. I was aware of the order only eight or nine days ago when it first appeared on the Order Paper and in the Vote Office.

Mr. Concannon

Copies of the order were not only made available to the Assembly members. Over 1,600 copies went out to various bodies and individuals. All the consultative processes took place beforehand. A lot of consultation has taken place since then with all the interested bodies. The order is not laid only on the date when it is laid on the Table. It was laid on 13th November both in Stormont and in the Library of the House. We did so for purposes of consultation. It was laid on the Table of the House on 5th December after all the consultative processes had been completed. I can assure the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker) that all the interested bodies were consulted not once, not twice but sometimes three and four times.

Mr. McCusker

I was a Member of the House in March, as were all my colleagues. Some of my colleagues are not members of the Assembly. We should at least have been supplied with a copy of the order.

In making that comment I must point out that the relevant documents which we required to make a study of the order were not available to us. For example, the Employment Service Development Plan for Northern Ireland, which was printed in December 1974—it is a most far-reaching document which contains proposals of great importance and significance—was not available to us. To make any comment on the order we needed to have that document in our possession. We needed to study it in great detail. I stumbled upon it by accident when a youth employment officer came to me to complain about the order. He said that it might be value to me. I do not know whether anyone else in the House knows that it is available. If they have not seen it they cannot comment meaningfully on the order. That is one document that is not available in the Vote Office or in the Library.

Another document refers to the Youth Employment Service staff, the Department of Manpower Services; and the proposed assimilation arrangements. It goes in great detail into the manner in which it is hoped to protect the interests of the Youth Employment Service staff. That document was printed in December 1974. To take a considered decision on the order we should have had that document before us and examined it in detail. I do not know whether any other hon. Member had that document available, but I only stumbled upon it.

The third document which I would have required was the inter-departmental committee report. I was unable to obtain it, for it was not in the Vote Office or the Library. Yet without those three documents one cannot give a considered judgment on the order. Surely the Minister accepts the obligation that the Northern Ireland Office should ensure that documents of this nature are mailed to hon. Members.

Criticism has already been made about how we should deal with legislation relating to Northern Ireland. It is evident that we cannot reach a judgment if we are to grope in the dark on a particular issue.

Let us consider the document on the inter-departmental working party. Why is it so crucial? It is crucial because in two sentences it destroys the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service. It says: The Inter-Departmental Working Party … highlighted the need for an integrated all-age guidance and placement service. … Schools should have teachers with appropriate training in careers guidance who would have specific responsibility for the provision of careers information and personal careers guidance. In those two sentences the Youth Employment Service was damned.

Who composed the working party? It consisted of civil servants from the Department of Education and from the Department of Manpower Services. I had to scratch around for the information, but I was told that the committee was set up originally at the behest of the Youth Employment Service. It found itself in difficulties. It had manning problems and difficulties involving morale. It also had problems involving premises—and perhaps also the service was looking for advice and assistance. But what advice and assistance did it receive? It was disillusioned. Should that advice have been given by civil servants, or should it have been given by an independent committee on the lines of the Coleraine Committee which set up the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service in the first place?

Did the committee have serving on it anyone with a detailed knowledge of the Youth Employment Service? The answer is "No". Were there any Youth Employment Service officers serving on the committee? Again the answer is "No". Were there any career teachers on the committee? The firm answer is "No". One could ask what were the terms of reference of the committee and whether it was considered likely to recommend the dissolution of the service. It could be argued that the committee should have had greater representation. There are many questions relating to the degree of consultation that took place, and the method.

The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Career Teachers' Association telephoned me at six o'clock this evening to tell me that she supported the comments I intended to make on the order. She said that her association had been asked on Thursday by telephone to send four representatives to appear before the committee on the following Tuesday. I do not know whether that was considered ample time for them to consider their point of view, but she was not impressed by the consultation that took place within the association—an association representing the career teachers with whom it is hoped to build the other half of the careers guidance service now proposed.

Mr. Concannon

Perhaps I may help the hon. Gentleman. I said that, after various forms of consultation, we had published the draft order on 13th November. While we did this, and made copies available to all sorts of people—Members of Parliament, Northern Ireland Assembly men and the various libraries, we also sent copies out to and invited comments from three bodies at this late stage— the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service Board, the Public Service Alliance, and the Northern Ireland branch of the Institute of Careers Officers. That we did on 13th November. The first two wrote back with comments, but the third body, about which the hon. Gentleman is talking, did not reply.

Mr. McCusker

Representations have been made to me during the past week by three groups of people—the association representing the careers teachers in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland branch of the Institute of Careers Officers, and individual members of the Youth Employment Service. Everyone in the three groups representing the people most intimately concerned and involved in the most detailed way is worried. The hon. Gentleman can list scores of people who were consulted. He can give details of the various letters sent out and the replies that were received. But if at the end of the day the people most intimately involved have reservations, the communication and consultation was not very successful. Simply to produce evidence that reams of paper were sent out and came back in again does not satisfy me that matters have been handled in quite the way in which they should have been handled.

However, the basis of this hardly impartial investigation is that the Youth Employment Service in Northern Ireland is to be destroyed. What is causing concern to many people is the fact that the responsibility for youth employment work is being removed from the sphere of education to the sphere of employment. The Youth Employment Service in Northern Ireland asked for help and finished up with a knife in its back. Putting it in terms which you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, might appreciate more than others What man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread will he give him a stone? The service asked its two parents, the Department of Education and the Department of Manpower Services, for help and assistance. The help and assistance was "We will remove your problems. We will remove you."

What is proposed? It sounds very nice. It is the integration of youth and adult services to provide an all-age vocational guidance and placement service. What does that mean? It is a "cradle to the grave" service in employment terms. It must be based on the assumption that people aged 16, 26, 46 and 60 have something in common when it comes to employment services.

As someone who was involved in education, I do not think that school leavers are miniature adults. They have their own needs pattern. They are frequently immature and insecure, and sometimes lacking in confidence or over-confident. But they are certainly not miniature adults. In terms of employment they cannot be treated like someone who has had several jobs or has been unemployed for a long period, and so on.

It is said "We are helping you somewhat. We are providing a careers guidance system in the schools. We shall have careers teachers." I taught for seven years. Thank goodness that in the period since I left teaching there has been a big improvement, otherwise I should be even more critical than I am now. I am told that in Northern Ireland the beginnings of a decent career system are being developed. There are courses for careers teachers in Northern Ireland. There were no such courses in my time. But very few teachers are adequately equipped to give careers advice and guidance. I have learned that only since I left teaching. I know of many headmasters who, faced with staff absentees and shortages, would direct careers teachers to switch to something other than careers advisory work.

The question of motivation of these teachers is also important. Five or six years ago a careers teacher was appointed by a headmaster who wanted to give him extra responsibility and a couple of hundred pounds more a year. Thank goodness, that situation has changed somewhat, but it has not changed to the extent that they would give me confidence in their ability to perform this duty, and it has not changed to the extent that people in the inter-departmental group have any confidence that they can handle it either.

The Youth Employment Service provided careers guidance in the later years of a child's time at school. It assisted in the placement and in the follow-up. There was a continuity, and a relationship was established. As a member of a local advisory committee of the service I can remember many instances where the youth employment officers passed on cases involving deprived or handicapped children who faced the prospect of not getting employment, but who were, because of the officers efforts, placed in jobs. That perhaps set these people on the road to some happiness in life. I do not see the prospect of that relationship between a group of career teachers and a group of placement officers who will not have much time to get together and discuss individuals.

We lose that relationship but we are told that there is an awareness of the problems in that direction and that the Interim Youth Employment Service will be provided. There is not much mention of that service in the development plan. The service is mentioned in connection with the assimilation arrangements. There is reference to youth employment officers becoming youth career guidance supervisors or officers.

Is it expected that there will be permanent positions within the new employment service, or will they simply last until the interim service is phased out? Will they be on a par with the employment advisory officers who will be the keystone of the new employment service? Will they be on the same scale of pay and status and so on? Are we to believe, as one could only conclude from the overall employment service development plan, that after five years there will be only employment advisory officers and that they will handle everything from youth work right across the board? If not, perhaps the Minister will give me chapter and line from the document showing what will happen.

The people who are most affected by this proposal are worried and concerned. I have here a letter from the Institute of Careers Officers. It says: This legislation will take the vocational guidance services for young people and adults in a significantly different direction from that in England, Wales and Scotland … Recent trends in Europe have tended towards moving the Youth Vocational Guidance Services away from Employment and towards Education Nevertheless, these people are not reactionary because they go on to say: Nevertheless, the idea of an all-age Guidance and Placement Service is not unattractive if one were assured that the provisions for young people (in which we are primarily interested) would be strengthened, and indeed we were led to believe that this would be the case. We are now in possession of a lengthy document which sets out the future plans for the Guidance and Placement Services under the Department of Manpower Services and are very concerned to find that the main bias of the plan is towards the adult side, and, in our opinion, if these proposals are implemented, it would lead to the position where the youth guidance role of the Service would be reduced to a small and unimportant part. Can they have any justification for making that statement? To answer that question we must examine once again our Employment Service Development Plan, which says that it sees as its primary purpose a guidance and placement service, which was an original manpower services function. It describes this as an integrated all-age guidance and placement service. This should be a prestige service within the department. An all-age vocational guidance service staffed by specially selected and trained executive officers grade 1, called vocational guidance officers, will be established. In the professional and executive register section —which is also a manpower services function— there is a need to strengthen the existing service. The immediate appointment of key staff is therefore proposed. In the disablement resettlement services —also a manpower services function— it is considered necessary to strengthen and improve the services for disabled people". It talks about setting up departments for looking after long-term unemployed and setting up local labour market intelligence units. In all their existing manpower services functions, those concerned thump the drum and say that they will do more. They say, for example, in American jargon, that youth employment services will become part of the multipurpose and effective comprehensive public employment service ". We read the following phrases: an integrated all-age vocational guidance and placement service ". to build a completely new structure by synthesising and developing existing elements in the employment and career, guidance field ". multi-disciplinary, multi-dimensional service The integration of youth and adult services will give the opportunity to provide a comprehensive range of mutually reinforcing services designed to help each individual realise his full potential. One wonders why ordinary careers masters, youth employment officers and Members of Parliament are concerned about what we are asked to rubber-stamp tonight. It is because they have reservations, and I hope that I have convinced the Minister that they may be justified. I am not even looking at some of the technicalities that are discussed. The authors talk about the accommodation with which this all-embracing multistorey whatever-it-is-service will be pro- vided. They say that they will have an open plan situation and that by movable screens they will create an impression of visual and aural privacy.

If I were a 16-year-old or 17-year-old unemployed youth, I would not want an impression of visual and aural privacy. I would want the reality of such privacy. I might be embarrassed about going in, even though I should not be embarrassed. I might have to tell the person interviewing me things that I would not want someone else to hear. Imagine considering an open plan with moveable screens to create an impression of visual and aural privacy.

I have some reservations about making my next point, but it may be valid. Should 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds seeking their first job, or perhaps having problems with their first job and seeking advice, have to mix with long-term unemployed people, who may have drink problems or other personal problems? Is there not a danger that there will be a rub-off in the wrong way in such a situation? If a young person, in all innocence, goes in for help and sits down to wait beside someone, might he not say in a minute or two, "I wonder whether I have done the right thing"? That is worth considering.

I come to what was said recently by a good servant of Northern Ireland, Bessie Maconachie, who in the late 1950s and early 1960s was a Member of Stormont and took a great interest in this matter. She was one of the initiators of the Coleraine conference, and eventually, I believe, took part in the moving of the legislation which brought the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service into being.

It is an indication of how far removed in some ways people are from government and democracy in Northern Ireland now that a woman of her experience should write to the Belfast Telegraph on 10th December and begin her letter by saying: As no debating chamber exists where this matter can be raised, I wish to express through the courtesy of your paper my concern at the proposed future of the Youth Employment Service, namely, that it should be transferred from the Department of Education to the Department of Manpower Services". She goes into some detail, and concludes by saying: Why now the proposed re-transfer? The public should at least know the reasons". The Minister has given us some of the reasons. The present trend in most countries is towards educational control. Is there need for another conference and another Coleraine committee? If we are to put some trust back into the Youth Employment Service, perhaps there is need for another open forum where people such as Bessie Maconachie and others interested can come together. Many of them have been in touch with me over the past few days, though some would not allow the use of their names because of the positions which they now occupy. One of them, incidentally, provided me with the original documentation for the Coleraine conference.

It is interesting that in 1956 quotations were made from the report of the Ince Committee, which was set up, I believe, at the end of the 1939–45 war. The Ince Committee stressed the educational aspect of the work of the Youth Employment Service and its belief that vocational guidance is a continuous process and one authority should carry out the whole administration, includng employment placing, which logically cannot be separated from advice ". It seems that one can separate them now. But I am not convinced of that.

There are many people genuinely concerned on this matter. The proposals may be right. Certainly, the careers officers were not saying "No" to them but regarded them as something that could be built on. I believe that there is something in the overall plan which can be built on. But to do that we must bring the people along with us. For six years in Northern Ireland we have been forcing people to do things instead of taking them along with us. We must not adopt those tactics on a subject such as this.

I pay tribute to the Youth Employment Service. One would almost have thought that there was a vendetta against it by the terrorists, but perhaps the trouble was just the location of its headquarters. It was bombed time and again, and the building was destroyed. In more recent times, it has had to endure atrocious conditions in another spot in the town. What is more, the premises were bombed and burned in Newry. But, notwithstanding all that, the service has continued to do a great job.

The hon. Gentleman suggested that its expertise was somewhat lacking, and that its success in placement was somewhat lower than that of the more professional people in the placement service of the Manpower Services Department. In fact, last year the officers of the service dealt with 30,000 young people, and placed 7,000 of them. I am assured that the 7,000 reflects only the number which they can actually count and there were probably many more whom they managed to place through further education and other means. I know also that 7,000 out of 30,000 will show up favourably in comparison with any other professional placement service in Northern Ireland.

The Youth Employment Service has done a tremendous job during the past 13 years, in extremely difficult circumstances. I hope that the assurances we have been given will ensure that they do not suffer as a consequence of any of this legislation, which unfortunately I have no alternative but to allow to go through.

12.45 a.m.

Mr. John Biggs-Davison (Epping Forest)

The Under-Secretary said that this is an important order, and indeed it is. Youth unemployment is part of the Ulster tragedy. School leavers and other young people without work may be drawn to criminal or political violence from which satisfying, useful employment might have preserved them. We all therefore pay tribute to the courageous and constructive work of the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service and Board.

I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker), who spoke from great experience and who in his cogent and eloquent speech demonstrated yet again the inadequacy of our procedure here and the insufficiency of our information.

For my part, I have not yet been persuaded that much good, if any, will be gained for young Ulster people from this bureaucratic rearrangement. If the House is not satisfied, the Under-Secretary should seriously consider withdrawing the order so that the House may deliberate further at a more convenient hour. I know that the appointed day is intended to be 1st January. I know that the Minister of State said on 12th September, when he announced that the Government had accepted the report of the interdepartmental working party, that the changes would be completed by 31st December. In mind, of course, was a meeting of the Privy Council. But what is the hurry?

12.47 a.m.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell (Down, South)

I do not think anyone could listen to the thorough and fascinating speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker) without realising that our proceedings on the order before the House raise very important questions of a procedural nature. I hope that what we have experienced with this order tonight wi!l not be repeated. I noticed that the Lord President of the Council made a very brief appearance earlier, but I am fortified by the presence on the Treasury Bench of two distinguished members of the Whips' Office, who I am sure will ensure that serious consideration is given in the highest quarters to the suggestions which I wish to make.

There is no substitute for legislation. If there had been any substitute for legislation, Parliament would have found it long ago and would have adopted it in place of legislation. If a change as far-reaching as the order makes in the organisation of the Youth Employment Service were being made in the rest of the kingdom, before there was any question of a Bill being introduced there would certainly be a Green or a White Paper, on which there would be both the opportunity of debate in this House and certainly the extended opportunity of consultation outside, not only between interested parties and between the Department and all concerned but between hon. Members of this House and their constituents, which is one of the most important consultations that can take place.

That presentation of the Government's intentions in the form of a State paper, properly published through the Stationery Office and available to us in the Vote Office, would have been followed by a Bill, which we would have first considered in principle and would then have been able, with the possibility for the Government to have further thoughts at later stages, to amend on two stages during its passage through this House.

That is what legislation means. I hope that more and more legislation referring to Northern Ireland will be combined with legislation for Great Britain, with or without an application clause, as is often found in Acts with special application, for example, to Scotland, so that, without any additional burden being placed on the Government's legislative programme, as good consideration can be given to legislation which applies to Northern Ireland as to that which covers the rest of the country.

Even where for compelling reasons— and I think they need to be compelling reasons now—the law in Northern Ireland has to be different in principle, as in this case, from that in the rest of the United Kingdom, I hope that the Government will find it possible to deal by legislation with at any rate major matters of the kind we are considering. Hon. Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies have given sufficient evidence that they approach legislation affecting that Province in no spirit whatever of wasting the time of the House or of the Government but with an entirely co-operative intention.

I am sure that where legislation is used, where a Bill is introduced, as it should be, to do things as important as this, even where it has to be a separate Bill for Northern Ireland, very little in terms of time would be lost but a great deal would be gained by the co-operation and the understanding of the outside public, which can be secured only through the proper legislative process. I hope that that will increasingly be the situation. I hope that we shall increasingly be legislating, in the proper sense of the term, for Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom.

Meanwhile we have what is generally recognised as a make-shift procedure. I wish to make a suggestion for a rule of practice for which there is an analogy in the current procedure of this House. Hon. Members who were kept up to the early hours of yesterday morning were considering EEC legislation. They found that in doing so they were increasingly assisted by a regular routine. They were not merely presented with the EEC document which corresponds to the order before us tonight. They were also supplied—or had a right to complain if they were not—with an Explanatory Memorandum from the relevant Department and with all the relevant documents which bore upon the contents of the instrument before the House.

I believe that we should adopt the rule —and I hope that the Government will consider this and that in replying the Minister will be able to say that at least serious consideration will be given to this proposal—that orders of this kind are not placed before the House for approval unless they have previously been accompanied by an Explanatory Memorandum setting out the policy and the Government's intentions which underlie the order, and also by an indication of all the documents which hon. Members need fully to understand what is intended, which documents ought to be available cither through the Vote Office or at any rate in the Library, as may be convenient.

It would not then be necessary for my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh and others to stumble upon what they need to do their job properly. This need not involve an undue loss of time. I notice that this order was laid on 5th December, a week ago. I suggest that if notice had been given of this order, with the Explanatory Memorandum and a supply of supporting matter, three weeks earlier, every hon. Member who was interested would have been able, in due time, to consult those of his constituents who were affected and who were expert. The debate need have taken no longer, but it would have taken place against a background of a House which was better prepared for doing its job.

There were references in another place when the same order came before it to the possibility of a Committee procedure. Whatever may be decided on that head, a Committee procedure is no substitute either for legislation or for the proper presentation of material accompanying one of these legislative orders. I am far from convinced that much is gained by a Committee mulling over the text of an order either before or after it is presented to the House. My prejudice is that the normal procedures of the House by legislation or by order, if hon. Members arc provided with the necessary supporting material, will be found to be perfectly adequate to our requirements.

I only wish to add—and I am sure that the Minister will be sensitive to this —that we are in somewhat of a quandary tonight with this order because all the policy decisions have essentially been committed. In one of the documents stumbled upon by my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh, the Employment Service Development Plan, dated December, we read that it had been decided— not here—that from 30th September the responsibility for the functions of the Youth Employment Service should be transferred to the Department of Manpower Services. Three months ago the responsibility was transferred—that is an act of policy—without debate in the House. We are concerned now with clearing up after the crucial act of transfer of responsibility. Then, we are told, from the new year it is planned that the Department of Manpower Services should become directly responsible.

When the planning of a new service is at an advanced stage, no one wants that to be interrupted by objection taken to an order of this kind, but the fact remains that the debate upon the order is the only opportunity which the only democratically elected representatives of Northern Ireland have had to consider the policy as well as the application of a big development or change. It is the more serious because, as has been twice pointed out, it runs counter to the trend in Great Britain and elsewhere. Therefore, it was all the more necessary that there should be at the proper time a discussion of policy from which we could have proceeded to consider speedily the details of the method by which it should be implemented.

I conclude by saying that I hope that the occupants of the Treasury Bench will agree that a modest and reasonable request has been put forward on behalf of those who represent Northern Ireland constituencies, and that the Minister will be able to indicate that this request will be seriously considered for the future, so that we have no repetition of tonight's embarrassment.

1.0 a.m.

Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

I am opposed to the order but, because of the very nature of the way in which Northern Ireland legislation is introduced into the House, we cannot amend it, otherwise I would try to do so, and radically. All I can do is express my opposition, when the Question is put, by shouting, "No". That is all I can do, and I shall do it to express my opposition.

Youth employment is the poor relation of the employment and educational services and although the Under-Secretary of State is not suited to the rôle of Prince Charming, he is trying to fit the glass slipper of youth employment, which is the Cinderella of the services, on to another one of the ugly sisters. He is taking the glass slipper away from Cinderella herself in the person of the Department of Education. The Youth Employment Service was first put under the Stormont Ministry of Labour and National Insurance, then into the Department of Health and Social Security, and then the Department of Education and Science. Now the hon. Gentleman is struggling to force the slipper on to the large foot of the Department of Manpower Services.

I cannot understand the indecent haste. Youth employment properly belongs to the Department of Education and Science, which it has never been given a chance. I do not see any justification for this precipitate action. The hon. Gentleman should take the order away and have the matter properly considered.

It would make some sense if the changeover were to take place at the beginning of a financial year. There is no significance, of which I am aware, in making the changeover date from the beginning of the calendar year. The hon. Gentleman's statement regarding the proposed change was made on 12th September. Perhaps he can tell us whether full discussions have been completed with the board and its officers. Is he satisfied that everything possible has been done to reassure the officers as to their future? What about important matters such as the assimilation of existing staff? Will they retain their present ranks, salaries and conditions of service without any doubt? I know that there are references to this in the order, but I should like the hon. Gentleman's direct assurance.

Mr. Concannon

indicated assent.

Mr. Kilfedder

The hon. Gentleman nods his head, and I accept his assurance. Would it not be good industrial relations practice for the existing board to continue in existence until the negotiations with the staff were fully completed? Is the hon. Gentleman really satisfied that the staff are happy with the present situation?

The order hijacks the staff out of the board's employment and pushes them willy-nilly into the Civil Service.

When the Albemarle Committee reported on the future of the Youth Employment Services in England and Wales in, I think, 1966, the House debated the perennial question of where is the proper home for such a service—in the employment sector or in the education sector?

I remember taking part in that debate, and I look back now on the first four to five years of the existence of the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service. It had a number of features which were clearly sensible. At the time of the establishment of the service, there were in Northern Ireland eight local education authorities. Each was too small and covered too restricted an area to be able to run at successful youth employment service geared to placing young people in employment and providing careers guidance for school leavers. It was right, therefore, when the service was set up, that the board should have centralised its services and overcome the difficulty of size.

The board was a pioneer in another way. For the first time in the United Kingdom, we had at that time in Northern Ireland a job-finding and job-placing authority, which did not also have to pay out unemployment benefit. It was this which distinguished the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service from the service in Great Britain. It is therefore shabbly treatment that this order should have been produced in its present form.

There were other differences, too. The service in Ulster, as distinct from the one in Great Britain, was able to attract a large number of academically-qualified people as youth employment officers. Unfortunately, staff turnover was great. The job had no career prospects to offer the ambitious. It was regarded as a stepping stone to more lucrative employment in personnel with private industry. The early hope that youth employment officers would interchange easily with schoolteachers was never realised.

The fault may have been that the service was under the control of the old Ministry of Labour at Stormont, which was inclined to treat it as an adjunct of its labour exchanges.

The service was also bogged down by the weight of its advisory committee structure. There were no fewer than eight county advisory committees for a service which covered a population no larger than an average size English LEA, with only 25,000 school leavers a year, 3,000 of whom went on to further education.

Research at Birbeck College in London shows that most school leavers still rely on advice from parents, friends and advertisements for employees. Advice from careers advisory officers and careers teachers comes fourth or fifth in importance. I do not know whether that position will be improved by transferring the service to the Department of Manpower Services instead of improving it whilst under the control of the Department of Education. There is no evidence to suggest that it will improve. There is nothing in the explanatory document accompanying the draft order indicating that there is any hope that the pattern will be changed.

I should like the Minister to explain certain points made in the explanatory document. In paragraph 5 it states: the board was divorced from the main stream of employment work ". Whose fault is that? Is that not a lack of liaison? Thus it had insufficient means and resources to exercise its responsibilities as effectively as it would wish. Surely that means that there was a lack of funds.

The paragraph refers to the difficulties of securing effective follow-up and validation of placements". What follow-up is there in the adult service? What is meant by "validation of placements"? Towards the end, it states: the Service had been unable, because of its small size, to develop adequate resources for research into employment needs". Surely the lack of funds had more to do with that than its small size.

Finally, the last sentence states: The provision of a headquarters and area office structure had imposed administrative burdens on senior officers of the Service. If that is true, the answer is that more staff should have been employed. What is set out in paragraph 5 is an indictment. It does not support the Minister's argument that the Youth Employment Service should be transferred to the Department of Manpower Services. It means that the Youth Employment Service was never properly supported.

The Department of Manpower Services is running a general service for all ages from 16 to 65. In England, it has always been recognised that there is a special problem with the school leaver. That has been the justification for the separate Youth Employment Service. I do not accept the Minister's argument as justifying the amalgamation of the Youth Employment Service with the all-age service.

The Minister has avoided the real issues. I believe that the order is a retrograde step and I am opposed to it. The Youth Employment Service has been starved of adequate funds since it started in 1962. It was run on a shoestring. It was provided with fifth-rate accommodation in near derelict buildings, badly furnished and ill-equipped. While local labour exchanges in Northern Ireland were new, bright and cheerful, the youth employment offices were generally dull, cramped and ancient.

When the Youth Employment Service was transferred to the Department of Education eight years ago the move was widely welcomed by educationists and others in Northern Ireland. I am not certain why there has been this change of attitude on the part of certain people. I do not believe that there has been a thorough investigation into this matter. It seemed right that the service responsible for the school system should also be responsible for careers guidance and the placing of young people in their first employment.

The 1965 move from the Ministry of Labour to the Ministry of Education regrettably made no difference to the standing of the service. It was treated like an unwanted and unloved child. Virtually nothing was done to encourage a closer working link between the youth employment officers and careers teachers.

I believe we have another 30 minutes left in which to finish this debate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas)

The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. We have just over 20 minutes left.

Mr. Kilfedder

I know that the Minister is very anxious to answer the points raised by the Opposition. However, I should still like to deal with two other matters.

May I ask the Minister if he will deal with the question of the attitude of people in the EEC countries to youth employment? The transfer of the service to the Department of Manpower Services is contrary to the general practice in the Common Market and elsewhere. The general trend within the EEC is to transfer the youth guidance service to the education service. Therefore, the Government are now committing themselves in Northern Ireland to a reversal of the general trend which is supported by the educationists and people who are knowledgeable about employment for young people.

However, all is not lost. There are certain safeguards which can protect the school leavers' service. At least there is that satisfaction. But it is little.

I do not welcome the order. I think that it is misconceived. It marks the end of a specific Ulster creation which could have been a pioneer in youth employment if only it had been given the funds. During its short life the Youth Employment Service Board did a good job. We all pay tribute to the work it did and the work of the officers. The Department of Manpower Services is taking over a dedicated organisation, which I trust it will not destroy. I trust also that the Department of Manpower Services will make better use of the men and women who comprise the Youth Employment Service than the educationists who seemed not to know what to do with them.

1.15 a.m.

Mr. Concannon

The House is indebted to the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker) and the other right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken in this debate because they have underlined the dilemma in which we find ourselves when debating orders of this kind.

Let me say at the outset that how and when we debate orders of this kind is not a matter for me. However, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State told the House recently that the Government had been looking carefully at how to provide a more satisfactory procedure for taking through this House the orders made under the Northern Ireland Act 1974. We have now completed our examination, and I am glad to say that the Government will shortly be proposing through the usual channels that these orders shall be referred to a special Northern Ireland Orders Committee for debate and consideration. It is hoped that this procedure can come into operation very soon and that orders such as the one being debated tonight can be taken in this Committee where we hope that they can be given fuller and more detailed attention than is possible on the Floor of the House.

We Ministers welcome this suggestion, as I am sure will right hon. and hon. Members—

Mr. Powell

The Minister will appreciate that what he has just said differs considerably from the point of view of hon. Members on these benches. Therefore, I trust that what has been said tonight will nevertheless be taken carefully into consideration before any step is taken.

Mr. Concannon

I am sure that all that right hon. and hon. Members have said will be taken into consideration. But I thought that that should be put on the record.

This debate has shown that there has been a lack of communication. I regret very much that the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker) was not able to be in on this at an early stage. I am sure that his old union would have been indebted to him if he had been. But I assure hon. Members that we have not been trying to railroad this through in any way. In fact, the opposite is the case. Consultations on it have been taking place for almost a year. We have done the proper thing with the order. In the case of Northern Ireland legislation, the system provides for consultation in the form of the publication of orders as proposals before they are formally laid before Parliament. The orders are made available as proposals in the Westminster and Assembly Libraries and are thus made available to all hon. Members and Assembly Members. Attention is also drawn to them by means of Press releases. Copies are sent to interested parties. Only then is an order formally laid before Parliament.

The consultation process was carried out with this order, in addition to the implementation of the recommendations made by the working party, which were made and accepted only after a great deal of discussion with interested persons and organisations. Obviously we shall have to look further into this, in view of what right hon. and hon. Members have said. There are possible refinements, and we shall consider them. But all this has taken place over a year. Part of the Assembly work was in this order, and part has come out of it.

We have to make sure that we do not have this lack of communication again. I shall do all that I can to reassure right hon. and hon. Members about that. But I stress that a great deal of consultation has been taking place.

It is true that the working party was composed of departmental representatives. However, its task was to correct the views current about the future of the Youth Employment Service and to see whether it could suggest any clear path for the future of the service. It did. There was a clear consensus that the service should be radically reshaped. The consensus was reflected in the report of the working party. It was further verified in the extensive consultative process to which the report was exposed. Therefore, the proposals in the draft order reflect the wishes of both sides of industry in Northern Ireland as well as those of the educational interests and the staff of the Youth Employment Service.

I should make it clear that the proposals in the order were one of the options which the Youth Employment Service Board suggested must be considered when the future of the service was being examined. After that a great deal of consultation about the order has taken place in a number of stages.

First, the working party, before reaching conclusions, consulted a wide range of interests, including the Director and Deputy Director of the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service Board, the board itself, the Northern Ireland Schools Careers Association, the Confederation of British Industry, the Association of Chief Officers, and Area Education and Library Boards, the Northern Ireland Council of Social Services, Educational Guidance Service for Adults, the Institute of Careers Officers and the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. All these views were considered before the working party prepared its report.

Second, before any decisions were taken to implement these recommendations, the working party's report was distributed to a wide range of interests. Some 1,500 copies were distributed to all Members of the Assembly and 64 other interested persons and organisations. A total of 33 replies were received and all of these replies were taken into account before deciding to proceed with the working party's recommendations. Naturally a variety of comments were made but the great weight of these were in favour of what the working party had proposed.

Third, after a proposed order had been drawn up—hon. Members will remember that the order merely makes possible the implementation of recommendations which had already been discussed in a way I have described—the proposed order was published on 13th November and attention drawn to it through the Press; copies were sent to the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service Board; the Institute of Careers Officers and the Northern Ireland Civil and Public Service Alliance, who were asked for their comments. Copies were laid in the Parliamentary Library and in the Library of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Thus, in addition to the action which had been taken through the circulation of the report, it was ensured that elected representatives were aware of what was going on and had an opportunity to put forward their views. The hon. Member for Armagh has shown up a weak link which we will consider. None of the comments received in response to the proposed order raised any fundamental objections of principle. After the comments had been received the order was formally laid before this House on 5th December.

Hon. Members need have no fear that the Youth Employment Service is being dismantled before adequate arrangements have been made for its replacement, or that there will be insufficient attention given to the question of careers guidance within schools. The whole purpose of the order is to improve the service, including the arrangements for career guidance, and not undermine it. First, I would remind hon. Members that it is the intention to improve the arrangements for careers guidance by ensuring that in schools there are appropriate numbers of specialist staff fully trained in careers guidance matters. I emphasise that this is not a task in respect of which half measures can be approved. It is important that those undertaking it should have the expertise and training appropriate to the task. These personnel will be part of the schools system and will work within it.

Mr. Carol Mather (Esher)

Does the All-Age Guidance and Placement Service place people outside Northern Ireland, and if so, what proportion, or is it entirely within the Province?

Mr. Concannon

This is a Northern Ireland order, so I assume that it applies within the bounds of Northern Ireland. If I am wrong, I will write to the hon. Gentleman on the point.

Second, the Department of Manpower Services' Employment Guidance and Placement Unit will maintain very close contact with the schools and ensure that they have all the support that they need. The Department's extensive knowledge of the opportunities that are available on the labour market will be at the full disposal of young people who will thus enjoy a service which they were not in a position to benefit from fully in the past. Likewise, schools careers masters will be given full backing so far as educational needs are concerned by the area education and library boards and by the Department of Education. These arrangements are not referred to in the order, because they will be carried out under powers which exist under other legislation. They are, however, very much part of the working party's recommendations whose implementation this order aims to promote.

Thirdly, a Youth Careers Guidance Committee is to be established which will contain a substantial representation of educational as well as employer and employee interests. The committee will advise the Department of Education and Manpower Services on the adequacy of the guidance and placement services, the links between the two, and related matters. It will thereby help to ensure that interested persons in both the educational and industrial worlds have a voice and that appropriate weight is given to the matters which lie within the order.

Having said that to hon. Members who have spoken against the order, let me say that all the points that have been taken about communication—

Mr. McCusker

I may have given the impression of speaking against the order. Perhaps I was motivated by some of the other factors about which we have spoken. I take the attitude that has been taken by most Members who have participated in the debate—namely, that within the overall plan there is something attractive, something good and something that can be built upon. We want to know that sufficient emphasis is being placed upon that. That is where our doubts lie.

Mr. Concannon

I hope that in my last few sentences I have removed some fears. I give the hon. Member for Armagh and his hon. Friends the assurance that the communication problems that they have mentioned will not be repeated. I hope that very soon we can adopt another system of discussing orders instead of coming here late at night. I estimated that I should be here until four o'clock this morning. It now seems that I shall have the bonus of an extra couple of hours sleep.

Mr. Kilfedder

Will it be possible for the officers to transfer easily and freely between the Northern Ireland service and the service in Great Britain under this order?

Mr. Concannon

As this is a Northern Ireland order I assume that if officers want to transfer they will have to go through the usual means of transferring. The hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) has reminded me of an assurance that I should have given about the transfer of the staff within Northern Ireland between the two departments. I think that all the fears that have been expressed by the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend the Member for Armagh can be scotched. I think I can give hon. Members the assurance they seek regarding the personnel.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That the Youth Employment Service (Northern Ireland) Order 1974, a draft of which was laid before this House on 5th December, be approved.