HC Deb 10 December 1974 vol 883 cc214-6
3. Mr. McCrindle

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the Government's view on payments in kind rather than cash to retirement pensioners.

The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mrs. Barbara Castle)

The Government's view is that it is better as a general rule to provide pensioners with income in cash, which they can spend as they wish, rather than to make payments in kind.

Mr. McCrindle

I am delighted to hear that, but does not the right hon. Lady feel that with concessionary bus fares and beef tokens, and now the pressure for free television licences, we are running the risk of telling the old people what they should do with their own money? Would it not be far better if the right hon. Lady and any future Government were to review pensions as often as possible, pay as much as possible and end the somewhat charity-type attitude that seems to indicate that we know better than the old people how to spend their money?

Mrs. Castle

I am a little surprised to hear that from the hon. Gentleman, whose party saddled us with the butter token scheme—one of the most absurd pieces of means-tested payments in kind at high administrative cost that one could ever hope to dream up.

Mr. Edwin Wainwright

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that a great deal of animosity has been created among old-age pensioners over television licences, especially among those who do not live in homes or in good warden schemes, where the old people have a television licence for about 5p a year? Other poor pensioners, without all the amenities that are a tremendous help to people in such homes and schemes, have to pay the full licence fee.

Mrs. Castle

I realise that there are anomalies. It is always the anomalies that seem to cause the greatest sense of frustration rather than the lack of a particular facility. But the question of television licence fees is one for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

Mr. Cormack

I welcome what the right hon. Lady said in general terms, but I ask her to reconsider the question of bus travel for old people, which creates considerable difficulties in constituencies such as mine where authorities overlap. Is there not a case for a uniform system of bus passes, particularly for those living in rural areas?

Mrs. Castle

The concessionary fares scheme is a matter for the local authorities concerned. I do not think that this is an appropriate moment to make it mandatory.

Mr. Gwilym Roberts

Will my right hon. Friend accept that most of us on the Government benches will welcome her preference for cash rather than other supplementary benefits? Does she agree, however, that there may be a need in the short term to expand supplementary benefits, largely due to the devaluation of the pensioners' status in the years of Conservative government?

Mrs. Castle

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. There has been a devaluation not only of the pensioners' status but of their income. That is why we gave priority, and will continue to give priority, to effective cash increases in the pension. The contrast is there to be seen. The large increase we gave in July still represents a real increase of 10 per cent. in terms of the October price level, whereas the value of the increase by our predecessors in October 1973 had disappeared at the end of four months.