MAKING AND REVOCATION OF SEA DESIGNATION ORDERS (Hansard, 10 December 1974)

§ Mr. Gordon Wilson
I beg to move Amendment No. 120, in page 17, line 42, after 'shall', insert: '(a) serve on such local authorities as appear to him to be concerned; and (b)'

§ The Chairman
With this we are to take the following amendments:
No. 121, in page 17, line 42, after 'publish', insert: 'in two successive weeks in one or more local newspapers circulating in the localities near to the designated area and,'. 446 No. 122, in page 17, line 42, after 'such', insert 'other'.

§ Mr. Wilson
I move the amendment formally and leave it to the Minister to make representations. The point in the amendments, especially in Amendment No. 120, is very simple. It is a question whether the Minister thinks it would be worth while to adopt it.

§ Mr. John Smith
We do not think that it would be advisable to accept Amendment No. 120. The people most concerned are those who have rights in the land rather than local authorities. In the context of a planning consideration, the local authorities would inevitably know what was happening. But we are disposed to accept Amendments Nos. 121 and 122, which will be moved by other hon. Members.

§ Mr. Buchanan-Smith
I thank the Minister. These amendments were tabled in a spirit of trying to make sure that as many people as possible who will be affected should know. I am grateful to the Minister for accepting them.

§ Mr. Gordon Wilson
On the strength of the amendments which are to be made, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

§ Mr. Buchanan-Smith
I beg to move Amendment No. 125, in page 18, line 1, leave out ' representations' and insert 'objections'.

§ The Chairman
With this we are to take the following amendments:
No. 128, in page 18, line 6, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert: 'If any objection made is not withdrawn the Secretary of State shall, before confirming the order, either cause a public local inquiry to be held or afford to any person by whom any objection has been made and not withdrawn an opportunity of appearing before and being heard by a person appointed by the Secretary 447 of State for the purpose, and after considering the objection and the report of that person who held the inquiry or the person appointed as aforesaid, may confirm the order either with or without modifications'. No. 129, in page 18, line 8, after ' representations', insert: 'and shall if either those making representations or the local authority or authorities so desire, offer to each of them an opportunity of appearing before, and being heard by a person appointed by the Secretary of State for the purpose'.

§ Mr. Buchanan-Smith
The purpose of the amendments is relatively straightforward and does not require a great deal of explanation. What we are seeking is this: instead of simply giving people who are concerned the opportunity to make representations regarding a proposed sea designation order, we intend by the amendments to give them a formal right to object to what may be proposed and then, following those objections, to enable them to go through the full procedures whereby the Secretary of State can cause a local inquiry to be held or appoint someone to hear the objections in person and thereafter report to the Secretary of State so that he may come to a decision.
The reason why we have tabled the amendments is that my hon. Friends and I feel that to some extent the importance of the creation of these designated sea areas in relation to people's livelihoods could be overlooked. If this were an order affecting people's livelihoods on land—because in that case it would be affecting people's property—obviously we would not countenance proceeding in any other way than by giving people the full opportunity to make objections and for them to be heard at an inquiry or otherwise.
Clearly, the situation is not entirely the same in relation to the sea, because private individuals do not own the sea. But the effect on people's livelihood could be just as great. The fisherman derives his income and livelihood from the sea in the same way that the farmer derives his livelihood from the soil, although in one sense the fisherman does not occupy the sea in the way as the farmer occupies the land. This is an important matter as regards people's occupations and livelihoods.
The issues here are as important to the fisherman as if he worked on the land. 448 I sought in these circumstances to give to the people whose rights may be interfered with the same opportunities as would be considered appropriate had the land been concerned.
It is in that spirit that I move the amendment. I hope that the Government will accept it. I believe that it will be generally welcomed by those who use the sea to obtain their livelihood. I hope for an encouraging reply from the Minister.

§ Mr. Millan
I appreciate the reason for this amendment but I regret that I cannot recommend that the Committee accept it. There is a continuing misconception about sea designation orders and their purpose. They are not being introduced for the purpose of facilitating the offshore contractors' operations, which will continue without the sea designation orders. The purpose of the orders is to bring the operations under control. Even if a section feels that its fishing or other interests will be prejudiced by a sea designation order, it will not serve that interest well if there is delay, in particular that which would be caused by a public inquiry, because while the inquiry is proceeding damage will continue to be done. That is where one is in a situation different from that to which the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) drew attention.
I have said that we want to consult the local authorities. That has been written into the Bill. There are provisions relating to orders, regulations and licences which take account specifically of different interests.
I have looked into the question and I have said that I will consider the question of compensation. I shall consider, too, the question of consultation with fishing interests. The approach which we should adopt is to write in safeguards before the order is made. Once the order has been made and we have allowed time for representations on it, I do not think we should then go through the public inquiry procedure. That would be damaging to the people whom the hon. Gentleman wishes to protect.
I am not unsympathetic to what the hon. Gentleman is trying to do, but I do not think that this is the way to do 449 it. I hope, in the light of that explanation that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.

§ Mr. Buchanan-Smith
I accept the Minister's assurance, and also what he said about the concept behind this measure. If there is no specific designation, many activities will be carried on at sea without the possibility of any control being exercised. There are certain benefits to be gained from the making of sea designation orders. I accept that point and do not argue about it.
However, equally, I ask the Minister to accept the other argument. While there are benefits there are also disciplines. The disciplines arise in regard to the regulations. Once the sea designation has been made, we have the opportunity to make regulations. It is conceivable that while some of those regulations could be beneficial, others could be of a restrictive nature. There are two sides to this coin.
At this late hour, I shall not press the amendment. I rest on the Minister's assurance about consultation with the fishing interests. It is for such consultation that we have pressed in all these amendments. The Minister says that he will see whether it is possible to write into the Bill a provision to ensure that fishing interests are more protected than they are at the moment.
In the circumstances, and in view of the Minister's undertaking, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

§ Mr. Millan
I beg to move Amendment No. 126, in page 18, line 4, leave out '14' and insert '21'.

§ The Chairman
With this amendment, we are to discuss No. 127, in page 18, line 4, leave out '14' and insert '28'.

§ Mr. Millan
This is a parallel amendment to the one which I moved to Schedule 1, to increase the period during which representations may be made about an order.
This is the last amendment. As you, Mr. Thomas, were in the Chair when we began, you will know that we have got through a considerable amount of work, and you will be even more relieved that we are not going on to deal with the remaining stages.
450 I appreciate very much the way in which the different Opposition parties have approached the Bill. We have done a remarkable amount of work. We have wasted no time. I am grateful for the way in which hon. Members generally, including my hon. Friends, have approached the Bill.