SCHEMES

HC Deb 22 October 1973 vol 861 cc878-83

Lords Amendment: No. 6, in page 27, line 39, after "elections" insert "or other voting arrangements".

Mr. Younger

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

This is a consequential amendment to an amendment accepted by the Government at Committee stage in the Commons to Clause 52(7).

It was proposed at that time by the Opposition that the provision whereby a district or islands authority, on receiving a petition for the setting up of a community council, should be required to hold "elections" for the purpose within six weeks should be amended to read "elections or other voting arrangements" to cover the case where some other mode of choosing council members might be thought appropriate. As a consequence of this, an amendment has to be made in Clause 52(2)(c), so as to stipulate that a community council scheme should contain details of "elections or other voting arrangements". A similar insertion has already been made in Clause 54(2), to cover the situation where the Secretary of State makes such a scheme in default of the local authority.

Mr. Ross

Will the hon. Gentleman say what is meant by the words "or other voting arrangements"? This matter was not raised in the earlier stages of the Bill and surely there must be something in the Government's mind in this respect.

Mr. Younger

With the leave of the House, may I say that what we have in mind is that some form of postal ballot might be more appropriate for the population than a more formal type of election. We wish to make the position more flexible so that that sort of arrangement, which would have to be agreed by all concerned, would be covered.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: No. 7, in page 27, line 40, after "councils" insert— ( ) provisions concerning the procedures to be adopted by which the community councils on the one hand and the local and public authorities with responsibilities in the areas of the community councils on the other will keep each other informed on matters of mutual interest;".

Mr. Younger

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

This amendment bears a certain resemblance to several that were moved in Standing Committee to require authorities of various kinds to provide information to community councils so as to enable them to fulfil their function as consultative and representative bodies. These amendments were not accepted at the time because they tried to put an onus on the authorities concerned which could not be enforced.

This amendment seeks to tackle the problem from a different angle, and concentrates on the procedures for channelling information and comments between authorities and community councils. The district and islands councils which are responsible for drawing up the initial community council schemes are to include in them something about the lines of communication that are to be established.

I do not claim that this amendment is perfect, but one of its merits is that it is not in a form which could purport to compel an authority, or a community council, to do anything at any particular time. It may also serve as a marker to remind everyone concerned of the need for effective procedures for passing information. The amendment will do no harm. It may do some good, and I invite the House to agree to it in the hope that it will be helpful on some occasions.

Mr. Hugh D. Brown

This is another amendment which the Government had the strength to oppose in the other place. I agree with the sentiments of the amendment, but it will be difficult for community councils and district authorities to write in a formal procedure. This is almost like industrial relations. I know that the Government were not willing to run the risk of another defeat, but I think that this should be looked at "flexibly", to use the Minister's favourite expression.

This proposal bears a certain resemblance—I agree that it is a little remote—to some of the things that will come later. This is only a draft scheme. I hope that it will be interpreted in the broadest sense, and that not too much detail will be required, because some community councils might not want to spell out in great detail their lines of communication to the district authorities; in other words, they might want a free hand.

I do not think that this is all that important. It might have been better had it not been in the Bill, but, as it is in the draft scheme, and as the draft scheme will come to the Secretary of State for approval, I hope that the Government of the day—and I trust that it will be a Labour Government—will consider it sympathetically and not expect too much detail from either the district authorities or the community councils themselves.

Mr. Ross

I do not think that this provision can do very much harm, but I do not know whether it will do much good.

One of the difficulties is that it was only today that we saw the list of amendments, and we then had to get a copy of the Bill—not as it was amended by the other place, but the original Bill—to find out what this was all about.

It will be fairly easy for district authorities and community councils to work out their lines of communication, but there is the other aspect for which, as far as I know, local authorities have no statutory responsibility, and that is the behaviour of other public authorities.

What are public authorities? They are not the local authorities, because they are already mentioned. They may be Government agencies. Does the term include the railways, or the Scottish passenger transport group? What does it include? What have the Government in mind? Does the Bill define a public authority in order to guide a local authority which has responsibility for this scheme? I presume that there is a proper definition somewhere in the Bill.

Mr. Younger

I hope that I may have the leave of the House to reply.

I note and agree with a great deal of what was said by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown). I shall try to arrange that in the advice that we give to community councils and district authorities in drawing up schemes the point made by the hon. Gentleman will be borne in mind, and also that it is considered by the Secretary of State when giving approval to schemes.

My answer to the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock is that I should not like to give an off-the-cuff definition of a public authority, but I have in mind the Highlands and Islands Development Board which might have responsibility in an area where a community council or a district authority is operating, and no doubt there are other examples. If the right hon. Gentleman would like a complete definition of "public authority", I shall be glad to let him have it.

Mr. Ross

"Public authority" must mean something. The Government have spent a long time worrying over this, and, having decided to accept the amendment, I should have thought that someone had decided what was meant by the term. Local authorities which have to draw up a scheme and comply with it need to know what is meant. Is there a definition in the Bill—that is my simple question—or will it be left to those concerned to decide which authorities are public and which are not?

12.30 a.m.

Mr. Younger

This is deliberately left wide because we do not want it to be too finely defined. We wish it to include as many sorts of bodies as might wish to be in communication with community councils as possible. This is mentioned in Clause 51(2): (2) In addition to any other purpose which a community council may pursue, the general purpose of a community council shall be to ascertain, co-ordinate and express to the local authorites, the views of the community which it represents, in relation to matters for which those authorities are responsible, and to take such action in the interests of that community as appears to it to be expedient and practicable. I agree that a hard and fast definition of a public authority could be made. There are established legal opinions as to what constitutes a public authority and what does not. It is our view that we do not want to specify any more closely what these authorities are, because the whole nature of a community council is that it should be as flexible as possible and as widely drawn as possible so that any public authority with which it comes into contact can be included in this sort of provision.

Mr. Robert Hughes

Does the public authority include an area health board? Is there any danger that there might be either an overlapping or a clashing of the local health council and the community council? Is the Under-Secretary satisfied that there is no danger?

Mr. Younger

I cannot give a firm legal opinion, but speaking off the cuff I would think that an area health board would be a public authority. The hon. Gentleman spoke about clashing. What we are trying to arrange is that communications between these bodies should be recognised, should be effective, and should be good. The object of that will obviously be to prevent clashing of any kind.

Mr. Robert Hughes

There is a clearly established relationship between a local health council and an area health board in relation to matters of health. Will the community council as established under this clause be allowed to take up health matters with the area health board? If so, is there a danger of the community council's work and the local health council's work becoming merged and overlapping, or is this likely to lead to friction where there are two bodies in existence within the same area?

Mr. Younger

I do not think so. What we are talking about is not the giving of powers to any of these bodies to do anything about health or anything else. We are talking about communications between them. I do not think anything in the clause can affect anything other than the form of communications between these bodies. I do not think it involves any trespassing one upon the other.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: No. 8, in page 28, line 24, leave out "30" and insert "20".

Mr. Younger

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

The amendment provides that, after a community council scheme has been approved, the minimum number of electors in any area who may petition the district or islands authority for the setting up of a community council is to be 20 instead of 30.

Obviously there can be no self-evident answer here, and the Government have always been aware of the possible difficulty to people living in the rural areas if the minimum figure were set too high. This was discussed in Committee. In the Lords my noble Friend accepted the amendment lowering the figure to 20 and no dissenting view was expressed. We are now inclined to think that it would probably be advantageous in the interests of flexibility to allow the number to be as low as 20. I therefore ask the House to accept the amendment.

Question put and agreed to.