HC Deb 19 October 1973 vol 861 cc557-60
Mr. Robert Hughes

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We were assured yesterday by the Leader of the House that the Government amendments to the Lords amendment to the Local Government (Scotland) Bill would be printed last night and would be available to the House today. I now understand from the Vote Office that they are not available and that they will not be available until tomorrow. That means that on Monday we shall be dealing with 194 amendments to the Bill coming from the Lords without any knowledge of or very little time to appreciate the Government's attitude to these important amendments. We shall be dealing with an important Bill affecting the whole life of local government in Scotland.

I doubt whether in the history of the House there has ever been such an example of utter Government incompetence as in the handling of this affair. How are hon. Members expected to do their duty by their constituents and by local government in Scotland with this kind of affair going on?

I do not know what the Leader of the House can tell us about business on Monday. It may be inevitable that the business continues. However, I hope that we shall have every opportunity to have manuscript amendments, or whatever the case may be. I hope that the Leader of the House will assure us that the Government's attitude will be one of sympathy towards hon. Members who have disagreements with the Lords amendments, and that they will not rest on technicalities.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. James Prior)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If in any way I gave wrong information to the House yesterday afternoon, I apologise to the House for doing so. My understanding at that time was that the Lords amendments had been received or were about to be received from the other place and would be printed, and would be on the Order Paper this morning.

Further, I understood yesterday that the Government were tabling their amendments to the Lords amendments and that those would be given to the Public Bill Office last night in time for putting on the Order Paper this morning. I understand that the House authorities, for quite proper reasons preferred that the Government amendments to the Lords amendments should be printed in an orderly fashion for the convenience of Members. Therefore, such printing was not carried out in time for them to be put on the Order Paper last night.

The Government amendments to the Lords amendments are now available in the Public Bill Office and will be available in the Vote Office by a quarter past eleven this morning. They are, of course, in time for further amendments to be tabled by hon. Members in all parts of the House during the course of the day. Those amendments will appear on Monday's Order Paper as starred amendments and, in the circumstances I should have thought they would be called. I am sure that that is more satisfactory than for the House to have to deal with manuscript amendments.

As soon as I heard last night that it was likely that the Government amendments to the Lords amendments would not be printed, I gave instructions that as many members of the Opposition as possible, especially Opposition Front Bench spokesmen, should have the Govment amendments to the Lords amendments. I understand that they were given advance copies of them last night. This may have been a slightly irregular procedure. However, we are in difficulty over the timing of the Bill, and I hope that the House will accept that we have done all that we can to make the necessary arrangements.

I repeat that the Government amendments will be available in the Vote Office within a few minutes. They are at present in the Public Bill Office. I understand also that those in the Public Bill Office have done their best to contact as many Scottish Members as possible during the course of the morning.

With that explanation and with my apologies if in any way unwittingly I misled the House yesterday, I hope that the House will agree to this procedure.

Mr. Hughes

The situation remains a very difficult one and, not having seen the Government amendments, it is not easy for me to comment. As I understand it, we may not be following the usual straightforward procedure of agreeing or disagreeing with the Lords amendments but some other complicated procedure, which I understand has been used rarely, of both disagreeing and agreeing with certain parts of the Lords amendments. Despite the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that the material will be available shortly, I hope that manuscript amendments will not be disallowed.

Mr. Baxter

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not know your position in ruling on this matter. It must be very difficult. But, speaking as a back bench hon. Member, I find it unspeakably unforgiveable for any Minister or Leader of the House to hand Government amendments to Lords amendments to specific Members of the Opposition before making them available to all hon. Members. To do so is to degrade our parliamentary system of Government. I hope that in some small degree you will be able to safeguard the position of this House.

The Leader of the House is so incompetent and so uninterested in the way in which the business of this House is conducted that he violates all the codes of good conduct by an unspeakable act of this kind, choosing certain individuals to whom to hand the Government's amendments to Lords amendments.

In view of the serious nature of these amendments to the Local Government (Scotland) Bill and in view of the hotchpotch nature of the Bill and the fact that it has not been through the proper channels of consideration, I ask that the whole matter be sent back to the Scottish Grand Committee for further consideration. The Bill is not suitable to the requirements of Scotland. It is badly thought out. It is one of the most stupid Bills ever to be introduced by any Government. The matter should go back for further consideration. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to do all that lies in your power to see that the interests of hon. Members are safeguarded, and to do whatever you can to persuade the Government to postpone the discussion of these matters, and to allow the Scottish Grand Committee to have another look at the Bill.

Mr. Speaker

I can help the House only in a very limited way. I have no doubt that the Leader of the House has heard the comments of the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Baxter) and I do not think it is for me to add to them. As for manuscript amendments, of course I will bear in mind this morning's discussion when we come to consider these matters on Monday.

Mr. John Smith

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The progress of this Bill has been such that hon. Members who are trying to watch carefully the Government's latest moves are having to follow it minute by minute. It is not always possible for hon. Members to be doing that all the time. Some Scottish Members are concerned about important matters which they wish to see amended in the Bill, and they may not all be aware of the latest developments just announced by the Leader of the House. I hope that you will take that into account when deciding whether to accept manuscript amendments.

Mr. Speaker

Certainly.