HC Deb 16 October 1973 vol 861 cc2-5
4. Mr. Hardy

asked the Minister of State for Defence how many men serving in Her Majesty's Forces have completed three tours or over one and a half years' service in Northern Ireland during the last five years.

The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. Peter Blaker)

It would require disproportionate effort to provide this information on an individual basis. However, 48 units and sub-units have completed either three tours or more or 12 months or more in Northern Ireland. Emergency tours are normally of four months' duration, although they may be much shorter.

Mr. Hardy

Will the hon. Gentleman consider establishing the period referred to in the Question, or a similar period, as the maximum length of service to be expected from any soldier in Northern Ireland? Does he not agree that if a maximum period were established it would bring great relief to the families of soldiers, particularly in those regiments and units upon which we rely most heavily?

Mr. Blaker

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would want to pay tribute to the work that our soldiers have done in Northern Ireland, as he did in a letter to my predecessor a year ago after he visited that country.

Mr. Hardy indicated assent.

Mr. Blaker

I cannot lay down a maximum time which any soldier will serve in Northern Ireland because we have undertaken that our troops will remain there as long as necessary. We try to be fair as between one unit and another and I think that we have achieved a great deal of fairness.

Mr. Concannon

What connection does the hon. Gentleman see between such factors as Northern Ireland, the satisfaction of soldiers' families and the alarmingly low recruiting figures for the Army?

Mr. Blaker

The morale of the soldiers has always been extremely high and continues to be so. As for the recruiting situation, the best assessment we can Make—we cannot be exact about these matters—is that the Northern Ireland situation is having some indirect effect on recruiting because of anxieties on the part of wives and mothers. It is not the principal reason for the low recruiting figures in recent months.

Dame Joan Vickers

How many tours have been made by the Royal Marines?

Mr. Blaker

I cannot answer that without notice.

6. Mr. Duffy

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the operations of the British Army in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Ian Gilmour

The Army is continuing to assist the civil authorities in the maintenance of law and order. During the past three months the security forces have made further progress against the terrorists and have helped to bring about a welcome decline in the level of violence.

Mr. Duffy

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen today's horrific Press reports about the trial of the Army deserter turned assassin? Is he aware that assassinations and the placing of bombs without warning now constitute perhaps the greatest threat to peace and reconciliation in the community? Will he see that the Army continues to give its present urgent attention to these two matters?

Mr. Gilmour

The problem of sectarian murders exercises the mind of everybody very much. I am not sure that it is the greatest problem but it is a problem to which we attach great importance.

Mr. Kilfedder

Does my right hon. Friend realise that the border with Eire is still wide open and that with few exceptions cars which might be carrying bombs, guns and terrorists from the Irish Free State are not checked on the border? Instead of the security forces in Northern Ireland being reduced, their numbers should be augmented, especially along the border, equivalent to the West German German border guard. In order to translate the casualties and the horror in Northern Ireland into an English dimension, we need to multiply by 40 the number of people killed in Northern Ireland and the 10,000 injured, some of them seriously.

Mr. Gilmour

The whole House accepts what my hon. Friend says about the appalling level of casualties that there has been in Northern Ireland. But I am sure he realises that it would be virtually impossible to close the border, which is over 300 miles long and which is crossed each day by some 50,000 vehicles. To search every one of those vehicles would disrupt economic life on both sides of the border. I cannot agree with my hon. Friend that it is wrong to lower our force levels. We keep the matter under continuous review. It is not right to keep more units in Northern Ireland than is absolutely necessary.

Mr. Peart

I accept that it is right to keep the matter continually under review, but there have been reports that withdrawals are imminent. Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm those reports?

Mr. Gilmour

One unit will be withdrawn this month, and one next month. They will not be replaced.