HC Deb 16 October 1973 vol 861 cc11-2
13. Mr. Barnes

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will clarify what is meant by the words "appropriate authorities" in the statement issued by his Department on 6th August about the Littlejohn case.

Mr. Ian Gilmour

No, Sir. It is not the normal practice to elaborate on matters of this kind.

Mr. Barnes

Does the Minister think that the kind of "dirty tricks department" stuff in which these authorities tend to indulge contributes to our security? Is it not the case that much of the time they are so ham-fisted and living so much in a kind of James Bond world that almost any enterprise they launch is likely to land us in the kind of highly embarrassing situation in which we landed on this occasion?

Mr. Gilmour

It is the hon. Gentleman who is living in a James Bond world, evidently believing all the stories he has read about these activities. My hon. Friend attended the meeting because he was told that he might learn something of interest about the supply of arms to the IRA.

Mr. Peart

I hope the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that Ministers were involved in these extraordinary activities and that Ministers should never be involved in security matters of that kind. That was why Her Majesty's Opposition, through myself, were right to demand a special inquiry at Privy Council level to investigate the matter.

Mr. Gilmour

It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to go on repeating that Ministers should not be involved in these matters, but the fact is that the gentleman concerned said that he would talk only if he met someone whose face he knew from the television. [Laughter.] If the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John) thinks that the business of trying to save lives in Northern Ireland is funny, he should tell us. The right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) will freely agree that this was a genuine attempt to see whether this man had information which should be gained. It could not be gained in any other way, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that if he had been in the same position as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State he would have behaved in exactly the same way.

Mr. Peart

But the right hon. Gentleman must appreciate that we on this side of the House are anxious about security and to save lives. Is he not aware that independent inquiries have always argued that politicians should not be involved in these matters?

Mr. Gilmour

I agree that that is so in many cases, but in this particular case—and no one has been able to dispute this—there was no alternative.