§ 6. Mr. Luceasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will give the latest statistics for the latest available year as compared with the previous two years for (a) the discovery of illegal firearms and (b) the detection of terrorists.
§ The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William van Straubenzee)Up to 12th November, 1,421 illegal firearms had been recovered this year by the security forces. This compares with figures of 717 and 1,264 for the whole of 1971 and 1972 respectively. Some 1,246 people have been arrested and charged this year with terrorist offences. Exactly comparable figures for 1971 and 1972 are not available, but in these years 659 and 769 people respectively were convicted of terrorist offences.
§ Mr. LuceI am grateful for those figures. Does my hon. Friend agree that the British people have every reason to 647 be extremely proud of the outstanding work done by the British Army and the Royal Ulster Constabulary in maintaining law and order so patiently and effectively? Do the figures include not only convictions in court but also those who have been detained? Does my hon. Friend agree that at the top of the list for discussion at the first Council of Ireland meeting should be the need for closer co-operation between the British and Republican Armies in maintaining law and order?
§ Mr. van StraubenzeeI am sure the whole House will echo what my hon. Friend has just said about the Army and the RUC. My figures do not include those who have been detained, but up to the same date in 1973 a total of 366 people had been detained by the commissioners. Lastly, the public statement made by my right hon. Friend about the constitutional talks makes clear the importance he attaches to working with the South in matters of security.
§ Mr. DuffyIn view of the present rash of sectarian assassinations and the proscription of the two organisations last Monday, will the hon. Gentleman comment on the claim in the Observer by Kevin Myers last Sunday that in almost three years of daily travelling in Protestant areas he had not been stopped or searched by the Army but that on the previous Tuesday alone he was stopped four times and his car searched once?
§ Mr. van StraubenzeeIt is long-established practice not to make comments from the Dispatch Box about individual articles in newspapers. I can only tell the hon. Gentleman that Ministers are always receiving, properly and rightly, complaints from both sides about the way in which people are stopped in all quarters of Belfast in the effort to maintain the peace.
§ Major-General Jack d'Avigdor-GoldsmidCan my hon. Friend tell us the number of British soldiers killed in the same period as compared with the previous year?
§ Mr. van StraubenzeeI would need notice of that question. I will gladly write to my hon. and gallant Friend. I may add that the figure shows a diminution.
§ Mr. FittOn the question of the detection of terrorists and the two organisations that were banned in the earlier part of the week, will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that the exercise will not stop there? Will he say that there will be a ruthless follow-up to find all who are members of the proscribed organisations or are giving support in any way? Will the same impartiality be shown when detecting terrorists of different political persuasions?
§ Mr. van StraubenzeeI can give an absolute assurance that exactly the same standards will be applied on both sides. The Government are determined to get at terrorism, whoever may be responsible.
§ Mr. McMasterWhile I welcome the work which the security forces have done in the past year, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he is aware that the tempo of violence and the number of explosions, deaths and injuries in the past 12 months have been very much greater than in the previous two years? Is he aware that one of the reasons for this was the existence for more than three years in Northern Ireland of "no-go" areas where terrorists could prepare for their violent activities? Does he appreciate that, if the security forces had wished to take the offensive against the terrorists three years ago, they could have brought this violence under control very much more quickly? What steps are they taking to end violence?
§ Mr. van StraubenzeeAlthough I am sure he says it in good faith, my hon. Friend is not right when he says that there has been an increase in tempo. I am glad to say this and to make it clear that since the days when the security forces entered the "no-go" areas there has been a downward trend in terms of violence.
§ Mr. McNamaraWhile welcoming the tremendous improvement that has taken place in the security position, may I ask whether the Minister is aware of the concern in the whole House over the recent spate of extremist bombings in the past fortnight and some of the particularly hideous crimes which are reported to have taken place in Belfast? Is he further aware that there is real concern that the security forces should now show an even-handedness between both sides 649 of the community? Does he realise that it would be helpful if we could get figures giving a breakdown of the number of searches in various areas and the arms seizures in those areas, because it would appear that from now on the security forces must lay increasing emphasis on areas which they have neglected in the past?
§ Mr. van StraubenzeeIf the hon. Gentleman wishes me to give figures for any particular category I will gladly do so. He will find that there is evenhandedness when it comes to the administration of justice and the repression of terrorism. I agree that there have been some foul crimes, not only on the Protestant extremist side. The murder of the boy abducted from a training school was perhaps one of the nastiest episodes we have so far experienced in Northern Ireland.