House Building (Hansard, 14 November 1973)

§ 6. Mr. Carter
asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied with the present level of housing construction.

§ 7. Mr. John Fraser
asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish the latest available house construction figures for 1973.

§ 19. Mr. Skinner
asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the latest available figures for house building completions in the public and private sectors for 1973.

§ 33. Mr. Horam
asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the rate of house building.

§ 45. Mr. Greville Janner
asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied with the present rate of house building.

§ Mr. Channon
The latest house building figures, to the end of September, were published on 30th October. As is customary, a copy is in the Library. Since June 1970, 2,162,000 decent homes have been or are being provided.

§ Mr. Carter
In a whole catalogue of Government failures, is it not a fact that housing is among the most appalling? After the collapse yesterday of the Government's economic policies, should they not start all over again and this time base their priorities upon what people basically believe to be more nearly right?

§ Mr. Channon
I cannot accept what the hon. Gentleman has said, and the House will not expect me to answer. I repeat that since June 1970, 2,162,000 decent homes have been or are being provided.

§ Mr. Idris Owen
Is my hon. Friend aware that the resources of the industry have been somewhat drained from the new construction programme into the phenomenal housing improvement programme, under which nearly 1 million houses have been improved, in sharp contrast to the rundown in the industry in the late 1960s?

§ Mr. Channon
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend in the conclusion which he has drawn. I am sure that all parties in all quarters of the House will wish to congratulate the Government on the fact that in the first nine months of this year 342,000 improvement grants were approved, compared with 131,000 in 1970.

§ Mr. Horam
Is not the way the hon. Gentleman talks about the housing figures reminiscent of the way his former boss—"do-nothing-Walker"—talked about the 489 trade figures yesterday, and is the position not a complete sham? Does the country not know that the housing figures are a complete disgrace and that one has to go back to 1947 in some parts of the country to get figures for council housing that are as bad? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there can be no dramatic revival, especially in view of the economic shambles that was acknowledged yesterday?

§ Mr. Channon
No, Sir. I do not think that I can agree with that either. If the house building programme is in such a shambles, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will be kind enough on another occasion to explain how it is that we have total starts of 260,000, when under his Government in the first nine months of 1970 the figure was 242,000, which he no doubt thought was a triumph.

§ Mr. Speaker
Dame Irene Ward.

§ Mr. Carter
On a point of order—

§ Mr. Speaker
I deprecate points of order during Question Time.

§ Mr. Carter
It is strictly relevant and germane to the Question and the answer. My Question referred to housing construction and so far the Minister has not answered that point at all.

§ Mr. Speaker
The Chair has absolutely no responsibility for what the Minister says. It is not a matter of order at all.

§ Dame Irene Ward
May I congratulate my hon. Friend on the success of the improvement grants, which give lots of people good houses which they might never have had, but which they jolly well deserve? I sat on the Select Committee and I should like my hon. Friend to suggest to hon. Gentlemen opposite that they read its report. They will then know what they are talking about, which they do not know now.

§ Mr. Channon
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. I have read with great interest the report of the Select Committee, to which the Government will be replying in due course. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, and I should have thought that it was common ground in all parts of the House—I am amazed that it is not, and there is evidently a 490 certain amount of sour grapes—that we all welcome the great increase in improvement grants.

§ Mr. Janner
How does the hon. Gentleman expect the increase in the bank rate to affect the already deplorable level of house building, and how does he expect local authorities—such as that in Leicester—which are Labour-controlled and desperately anxious to increase house building in their areas, to cope with this additional difficult factor?

§ Mr. Channon
The measures taken yesterday were intended to deal with special circumstances. It would be quite wrong to assume that interest rates will necessarily stay at their new levels for long. As for local authority construction, I am only too anxious that local authorities which need to build should do so. If Leicester needs special assistance, perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will get in touch with me.

§ Mr. Janner
I shall, with pleasure.

§ Mr. Sydney Chapman
Although the decline in the number of completions each year since 1968 is undoubtedly a cause for concern, does my hon. Friend recognise that it is far better to renovate wherever practicable than to demolish, because it is economically cheaper and socially better?

§ Mr. Channon
I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule—for example, where slum clearance programmes are necessary to deal with genuine slums—but as a general statement of principle I agree entirely with my hon. Friend.

§ Mr. Freeson
Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that his answer to the supplementary question asked by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Sydney Chapman) and the question itself completely miss the point? The issue is not a matter of choice between renovation and construction; it is a matter of getting both under way on a much larger scale. May I remind the hon. Gentleman that in 1970 his own Department issued statistics compiled by the statistical division indicating the need for the construction—in addition to renovations—of 400,000 dwellings a year to 491 meet expected needs? The figure is running at a level of fewer than 300,000 completions this year. When can we expect to move in the direction of his own Department's figure of 400,000 completions a year, in addition to the improvement programme?

§ Mr. Channon
That, coming from the hon. Gentleman, is a bit much. When he was at the Ministry of Housing in 1970 the figures for housing starts were running at a lower level than they are now and the hon. Gentleman did not make those noises at that time.

§ 11. Mr. Frank Allaun
asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the latest available figures for council house building starts and completions so far in 1973 compared with those for the similar period of 1970; and what steps he is taking to arrest the decline.

§ Mr. Channon
Public sector starts and completions in the first nine months of 1973 were 87,000 and 79,300 respectively. In the same period of 1970 the figures were 118,000 and 132,000. Total starts for the same nine-month period were 260,000 in 1973 and 242,000 in 1970; total completions were 220,000 and 256,000 respectively; and improvement grants approved were 342,000 and 131,000 respectively.

§ Mr. Allaun
Is the Minister aware that so far this year council house completions are the lowest for 26 years? As the 13 per cent. bank rate will mean an even more calamitous blow to the council house building programme, will he grant subsidised loans through the Public Works Loan Board instead of reducing the subsidy by £130 million a year compared with what the figure would have been in 1976, which is the Government's policy?

§ Mr. Channon
On the point about subsidy, perhaps the hon. Gentleman would be good enough to look at an answer given recently to his hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher), which shows that the amount of rent subsidy has increased. It certainly has not gone down; it has practically doubled. On the question of local authorities needing to build council houses, I very much hope that they will do so. The primary responsibility in that regard lies with local authorities. Local authorities have 492 had certain difficulties in contractual and tendering matters. This is why the Government have taken steps in the last month to try to see whether some help can be given to local authorities in contractual and tendering matters.

§ Mr. Hardy
Will the Minister now answer the question that was put to him earlier? Will he confirm that building in both public and private sectors is inadequate—so much so that this year we shall build fewer than 300,000 houses? Would he also take note that in many areas houses are being pulled down faster than they are being replaced? This means that within a short time slum clearance programmes in older areas are likely to be seriously imperilled. Will he ensure that the Government's building policy is completely changed?

§ Mr. Channon
The hon. Gentleman is wrong to say that buildings are being pulled down faster than they are being replaced. That is a misunderstanding, which my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment cleared up in the debate on the Queen's Speech. [An HON MEMBER: "What about making a forecast?"] I would not wish to make a forecast. I do not think that Conservative or Labour Ministers have ever made forecasts about the rate of building. I have already pointed out that in the past three years over 2 million decent homes have been provided. I do not think that is too bad.

§ Mr. Freeson
Will the Minister make more explicit the figures he gave in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun)? The Minister said that 87,000 dwellings had been started in the public sector. Does he agree that about 20,000 of those 87,000 houses are by new towns, Government Departments and housing associations, and that the real figure to be provided by local authorities for this year will be in the region of 67,000, the lowest figure for 20 years?

§ Mr. Channon
I have already told the House that the primary responsibility on this score lies with the local authorities. When the Labour Party was in power Labour Ministers argued strongly on this point. [Interruption.] I know that the Opposition do not like the answer, but I am entitled to make my case in the House. 493 It is the primary responsibility of local authorities to deal with the housing problems in their areas. Local authorities get the money from housing subsidies provided largely by central Government. I advise Labour Members who complain to look at the total figure of subsidy being provided to local authorities. As for any particular point to be made about the yardstick, or other difficult and specific matters, perhaps hon. Members will get in touch with me. So far as I know, I have not received any complaints from Brent.