HC Deb 14 November 1973 vol 864 cc506-8
Mr. Mark Hughes

(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the difficulties facing the emergency ambulance service in County Durham during the current industrial dispute.

The Secretary of State for Social Services (Sir Keith Joseph)

The ambulance service is a local health service responsibility. I understand that ambulance men in County Durham withdrew all services at 8 a.m. last Monday—including emergency services. The Durham County Council is maintaining an emergency service with the help of volunteers.

Mr. Hughes

May I ask the Secretary of State, first, whether his Department undertakes to give all necessary assistance to Durham County Council in the preservation of an effective emergency ambulance service at this time, secondly, whether he will give such assistance to Mr. Don Robson, the chairman of the council, in mediating between the ambulance men and their employer, and, thirdly, whether he will confirm that the ability of the county council to make an offer in line with the McCarthy Working Party recommendations on the structure, pay and conditions of the ambulance service has been vetoed by him?

Sir K. Joseph

I understand that the county council is able to tackle all emergency calls effectively. More than 600 offers of help have been received, and I am advised that this number is increasing. As for mediating, the hon. hon. Gentleman will know that the negotiations are for the National Joint Council. The McCarthy proposals, of which I am thoroughly aware, have been considered by me on an approach by both sides of the employment, and I have reluctantly had to say that they did not appear to conform to stage 3.

Dame Irene Ward

While I agree with mediation because people should have good pay, may I ask my right hon. Friend please to thank the volunteers for the work they have done to keep the ambulance service running in the interests of the Durham community?

Sir K. Joseph

Yes, I admire and respect the offer by the volunteers and the service they are carrying out for the public.

Dr. Summerskill

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is a serious possibility that the present campaign of partial strikes and working to rule in certain parts of the country will be found by the end of next week to be more widespread? Does he realise that stage 3 of the incomes policy is totally unacceptable to, and resented by, public employees, of whom the ambulance men form a part, as they are among the lowest paid in the community?

Sir K. Joseph

I understand that there are strong feelings. I also understand that the action of the men in Durham and in some other places is unofficial and that their trade union has advised them not to take industrial action but to await a national delegate conference later this month.

It is true that the basic pay is relatively low but the average earnings cannot be described as low.

An Hon. Member

Including overtime?

Sir K. Joseph

The hon. Gentleman speaks as if it were a mystery—of course including overtime. The average earnings are not to be described as low—

Mr. William Hamilton

For how many hours?

Sir K. Joseph

For 48 hours. The average earnings for those on the lowest basic pay are £36 a week for 48 hours. For the middle grade the average earnings, I understand, are £39.63p for a 48-hour week.

I wish that the hon. Lady had told the House whether she and her right hon. Friends are in favour of the unofficial action that is being taken.

Mr. William Hamilton

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm or deny that many of these men are working 60 hours and more a week to get the money he is talking about?

Sir K. Joseph

I cannot confirm or deny because I am not aware of that. I have been informed that for 48 hours work the earnings are as I have said, but, as the hon. Gentleman puts me on warning, I will find out.

Mr. Hamilton

The right hon. Gentleman could have found out before he came here.

Mr. John Silkin

While the Secretary of State is busy finding out that, will he also find out that ambulance workers have to remain on stand-by call over weekends for a sum which I believe is under 20s?

Sir K. Joseph

These arrangements have been going on for some time. We cannot put the world completely to rights in a moment. It is in the country's interests that stage 3 should be carried out. These actions are unofficial and against union advice. I ask again whether the Opposition Front Bench is in favour of them.