MODIFICATION AND EXCLUSION OF OTHER ENACTMENTS IN RELATION TO THE COMMISSION AND AGENCIES (Hansard, 23 May 1973)

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
I beg to move Amendment No. 9, in page 9, line 28, leave out subsection (3) and insert: '(3) For the purposes of sections 1 and 2 of the Contracts of Employment Act 1972 and sections 27(1)(a) and 28(a) of the Industrial Relations Act 1971, a person's period of continuous employment by a relevant body shall be treated as increased by the period or the aggregate of the periods for which he was previously continuously employed by that or another relevant body or in the civil service of the State if the period or each of the periods for which he was so employed was immediately followed by a period for which he was employed by a relevant body or in the said service; and for the purposes of the said section 28(a) a person's period of continuous employment in the said service shall be treated as increased by the period or the aggregate of the periods for which he was previously continuously employed by any relevant body or in the said service if the period or each of the periods for which he was so employed was immediately followed as aforesaid. (3A) For the purposes of the preceding subsection—
(a) the Commission and each of the Agencies is a relevant body;

(b) periods of continuous employment shall be determined in pursuance of Schedule 1 to the said Act of 1972, and "employed" has the same meaning as in that Act; and

(c) employment in the civil service of the State shall be treated as employment under a contract of service but shall be disregarded unless in the course of it the person in question gives personal service of at least twenty-one hours a week, or of such number of hours less than twenty-one as the Secretary of State may by order specify, and the remuneration for the employment is defrayed entirely out of money provided by Parliament'.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this amendment it will be convenient to take the following amendments:

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
The amendments reflect an unease which I expressed in Committee. Paragraph 35 of the White Paper states that Subject to discussion with the Staff Sides on the detailed arrangements involved it is proposed that Civil Service terms and conditions should continue to apply to the staff of the commission and agencies in order to facilitate free movement of staff between them, and between any of them and the Department of Employment and other Civil Service departments. The amendments are to make sure that that comes about. Workers have certain rights, depending on the continuity of employment, the most important in this context being that a worker has the right not to be unfairly dismissed if he has been continuously employed for at least two years. This applies to civil servants as well as to other workers. I explained in Committee that I was not altogether happy that Schedule 3 adequately safeguarded these rights in all possible combinations of transfer between the Civil Service, the commission and the agencies.
8.45 p.m.
These amendments, which for technical reasons remove the continuity of employment provisions out of Schedule 3 to Clause 7, ensure that the continuity of employment is observed despite any combination of successive transfers between the Civil Service, the commission and the agencies. Therefore a worker, if he moved from the Civil Service to the Employment Service Agency, then to the TSA, then back to the Civil Service and then to the Commission would never lose his "unfair dismissal" rights.
I think these are two amendments which are worth while and safeguard important rights, and I commend them to the House.

§ Mr. John Grant (Islington, East)
The Minister has probably answered to some extent the point I wish to make, but I wonder whether I could press him a little further on this. Perhaps I should declare an interest. As I think the Minister 577 knows, I am an adviser to the Civil and Public Services Association, which has recently taken under its wing the Ministry of Labour Staff Association and represents the bulk of the staff concerned in this matter.
On the staff side there is still some apprehension. They have pointed out to me that the White Paper "Employment and Training: Government Proposals" says in paragraph 35: Subject to discussion with the Staff Sides on the detailed arrangements involved it is proposed that civil service terms and conditions should continue to apply to the staff of the Commission and Agencies. … Subsequently, in a letter to the Department of Employment Whitley Council, Staff Side, the Secretary of State confirmed that it was: the Government's intention that after the change Civil Service terms and conditions should continue to apply to the staff concerned, so that there would be freedom of transfer between the new bodies and the Department and other Civil Service Departments. Their staff would continue to belong to the Civil Service Superannuation Scheme. All new conditions of service and pay agreed for civil servants would apply automatically. There will be detailed discussions with the Staff Side of the arrangements necessary to bring all this about. The only change involved in our proposals, therefore, will be a change of name which follows automatically from the fact that the staff will be employees of the new bodies and not of the Crown. As I understand it, the Staff Side remains somewhat unconvinced that the job which the Government require of the proposed Manpower Services Commission and its agencies could not be performed equally satisfactorily within the confines of the Civil Service itself. I do not subscribe to that view. I do not think it is necessarily so, but I ask the Minister whether he could record quite categorically tonight the undertakings regarding future conditions of employment which have been given to the staff associations outside this House but, as far as I can understand, have not really been given in that categorical fashion inside the House. I would remind him that the good will of civil servants is very much involved in this. I think it is really a small step for him to take to give this categorical assurance that what was said outside the House does apply. They would like it on record in this place, and I ask him, in the interest of improving the rather difficult relationships which have 578 existed latterly, to go on record tonight as giving that assurance.

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
In certain respects I have already given considerable reassurance in the sense that I said in Committee that this was something that needed looking at. We have looked at it, and I hope that we have done the right thing. I have no hesitation in giving the assurance, although I am not going to put it into words, on the broad terms which the hon. Gentleman wants. I hope that will satisfy him.