§ 13. Mr. Wellbelovedasked the Minister of State for Defence what was the number of Service men in Her Majesty's Forces killed and injured in Ireland for each year from 1900 to the latest available date.
§ Mr. BlakerIt has not been possible to produce precise figures of deaths and injuries from all causes since 1900 but we believe that no Service man was killed or injured by terrorist activity in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1969. With permission, I will place in the OFFICIAL REPORT figures relating to the period since August 1969.
§ Mr. WellbelovedDoes not the hon. Gentleman realise that many people will construe that answer as being deliberately misleading? If the figures had been obtained from the records, would they not have shown clearly that successive generations of young British soldiers have died inglorious deaths in Northern Ireland trying to impose the mistaken policies of successive British Governments? Why do not the Government accept the reality of the situation that Britain has no place in Northern Ireland against the wishes of the people of both Britain and Ireland?
§ Mr. BlakerI cannot accept that my answer was deliberately misleading. I gave the hon. Gentleman the facts as far as I was able to discover them. As for the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I have the impression that he was making the speech that he hopes to make later this week should he catch your eye, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. McMasterWill my hon. Friend say clearly that the Northern Ireland border is the border of the United Kingdom and that a mischievous and vicious attack is being launched both from outside and from a militant minority in Northern Ireland designed to overthrow the Government of a part of the United Kingdom?
§ Mr. BlakerThe position of Her Majesty's Government on that matter has been made entirely clear.
§ Mr. PeartI was a member of the administration which put troops into Northern Ireland, and I believe that we made the right decision. It is my belief that all hon. Members on both sides of the House will best represent the will of the British people by supporting our troops in Northern Ireland.
§ Mr. BlakerI very much welcome what the right hon. Gentleman has said.
§ Rev. Ian PaisleyIs the hon. Gentleman aware that all right-thinking people in Northern Ireland utterly deplore and condemn the killing of British troops in Northern Ireland? Has the Minister seen the article which appeared in the Sunday Times in which revelations were made about the British security intelligence service and that this has alarmed people in Northern Ireland as it puts at risk members of the British Army?
§ Mr. BlakerI cannot comment on newspaper articles, but I welcome what the hon. Gentleman said in the early part of his question.
§ Following is the information:
| Killed | Injured | |
| 1969 (from 1st August) | — | 21 |
| 1970 | — | 98 |
| 1971 | 48 | 258 |
| 1972 | 129 | 447 |
| 1973 (to 21st May) | 43 | 133 |
§ Notes:
§ (1) These are operational casualties, i.e. excluding flying, traffic and other accidents.
§ (2) Figures include members of the Ulster Defence Regiment.
14. Mr. R. C. Mitchellasked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will now introduce a phased withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland.
§ 32. Mr. Goodhartasked the Minister of State for Defence what plans he has to reduce the number of troops stationed in Northern Ireland.
§ Mr. Ian GilmourThe level of our forces in Northern Ireland depends on the needs of the situation there.
Mr. MitchellWhen will the Government wake up from their dream world and face reality? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the British people support our troops in Northern Ireland but that they are also fed up with our soldiers being shot at from both sides? How much longer must they remain there?
§ Mr. GilmourI agree that everyone is fed up with our troops being shot at and in some cases killed. But they are undertaking a vital task in support of the civil authorities and must remain there until the situation is restored to normality.
§ Mr. Evelyn KingDoes my hon. Friend accept, in more responsible and gradual terms than those raised by the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. R. C. Mitchell), that over the years this demand is certain to grow? Therefore, will my hon. Friend make every possible use of Ulstermen in the provision of their own security rôle? The opinion of many people is that this is being insufficiently done and that an unfair burden is being placed upon British troops.
§ Mr. GilmourI agree with the first part of my hon. Friend's question, that people are bound to become increasingly 204 fed up with the terrible casualties that the security forces have suffered. But I cannot agree with the second part, and I do not believe that our dispositions can be criticised in the way that my hon. Friend implies.
§ Mr. LawsonIrrespective of what might be said by certain of my hon. Friends, Northern Ireland is irreparably a part of Great Britain. The people are one. The Irish are spread so widely through England, Scotland and Wales that we cannot separate ourselves. We must find an answer which will bring the peoples of Ireland and Britain together. This is the only possible solution. It is no good turning our backs on the problem and hoping that it will away. We have to find a solution which will bring the peoples together.
§ Mr. GilmourI am glad to hear that, and I agree with the hon. Gentleman.
§ 25. Mr. McNamaraasked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the rôle of the Military Reaction Force, Northern Ireland.
§ Mr. Ian GilmourI assume that the hon. Member is referring to the Army's plain clothes patrols in Northern Ireland. Their function, as my right hon. Friend said in answer to the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mrs. McAliskey) on 20th October 1972, is to undertake essential surveillance tasks in circumstances in which soldiers in uniform and with Army vehicles would be too easily recognised. —[Vol. 843, c. 145–61.]
§ Mr. McNamaraIs the hon. Gentleman aware that I am referring to Press reports in both The Times and the Sunday Times about the activities of this unit? I appreciate the need for counterintelligence and counter-espionage activities by the Army in seeking to defeat the Provisional IRA, but some of the methods used are open to considerable criticism on moral as well as on practical grounds. In particular, according to the case reported in the papers, it appears that one deserter was given the option of facing a court martial or spying on the IRA. Is this the best method of trying to defeat these people when the Government's whole policy is aimed towards reconciliation? In particular, has the Department thought about the long-term effects that this kind 205 of thing might have on the families of those informants?
§ Mr. GilmourAs the hon. Gentleman knows, intelligence is absolutely vital in dealing with terrorism. The whole House will be grateful for and surprised by the extraordinary restraint and care with which the Army has chosen the method that it uses to deal with terrorists.
§ 29. Mr. McMasterasked the Minister of State for Defence how many soldiers and members of the Ulster Defence Regiment serving in Northern Ireland have been killed since 12th August 1969; and in how many instances the Official or Provisional IRA has publicly claimed responsibility for these deaths.
§ Mr. BlakerSince August 1969, 184 Regulars and 36 members of the Ulster Defence Regiment have been killed by terrorist or other hostile action in Northern Ireland. Records are not kept of the number of IRA claims of responsibility.
§ Mr. McMasterIs my hon. Friend aware that about 260 members of the Army, the police and the reserves have been killed in Northern Ireland and that in almost every case the IRA has issued a statement claiming responsibility for those murders? Is not the failure of Her Majesty's Government to deal effectively with the security situation and to bring these terrible murders and deaths to an end the result of the fact that the Army will not direct its entire efforts towards restoring security in Northern Ireland and defeating the IRA?
§ Mr. BlakerIt is reasonable to assume in the context of my hon. Friend's Question that the IRA was responsible for nearly all the brutal killings to which I have referred. As for concentrating our efforts, I remind my hon. Friend that it is the task of the security forces to deal with terrorism from whatever direction it comes and that every time there is any resort to violence from other quarters this distacts the Army from the task of dealing with the IRA.