§ Q2. Mr. Meacherasked the Prime Minister what further invitations he has issued to the TUC and CBI to meet him for talks on matters of mutual concern.
§ Q5. Mr. Leslie Huckfieldasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a further statement about matters concerning phase 3 discussed with the TUC and CBI.
§ Q8. Sir G. Nabarroasked the Prime Minister whether he will report on his resumed talks with the TUC.
§ Mr. BarberI have been asked to reply.
My right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Employment and I met representatives of the TUC on 17th May. We discussed the progress of the economy and the problems which will have to be overcome in order to sustain the present expansion. We did not discuss details of what will follow stage 2 of the counter-inflation programme. The TUC representatives undertook to report to their Economic Committee and their General Council and then will let the Government know whether they can accept an invitation for a further meeting. The Government will be having a similar meeting with representatives of the CBI on 30th May.
§ Mr. MeacherWhat assurances can the right hon. Gentleman give the TUC about the rampant use of tax havens? Is he aware that the deposit of funds in the Channel Islands is today accelerating at a rate three times faster than a year ago and today totals about £1,000 million? 217 Therefore, is not the Government's incomes policy a case of having slammed the stable door shut after the real money-spending horses had already bolted?
§ Mr. BarberI answered a Question the other day about tax avoidance and about various devices which are used. I set out the attitude of the Inland Revenue and of myself to them.
§ Mr. KinseyI am sure my right hon. Friend recognises that the Government have had the support of the moderate majority of trade unions for the policy so far. Will he see that in future they are given a fair deal? Otherwise he will lose that support.
§ Mr. BarberIt is certainly true that we have had the support of the moderate trade unions. It is recognised now throughout the country that it is in everyone's interest to control inflation. It is also significant that well over 3 million people have already been covered by pay settlements within the phase 2 limit. Throughout the country moderation and common sense have been shown in putting forward wage demands. Incidentally, there has been a marked improvement in industrial relations.
§ Mr. HuckfieldAs we have seen, particularly in recent weeks, that those who make their living from profits, rents and dividends have had a far easier time in the freeze and phase 2 than those who have been very hard hit as wage-earners by rocketing food prices and rents, what will the Chancellor do to ensure that things are fair in phase 3?
§ Mr. BarberConcerning phase 2, and the code and the action taken by the Government, we have been very strict with all sections.
§ Sir G. NabarroWhile congratulating my right hon. Friend and, through him, the Prime Minister on the undoubted success of phase 1 and phase 2, may I ask my right hon. Friend not to delay too long resumed talks with the TUC on the prospects for phase 3? Undoubtedly, if my right hon. Friend delays too long, the Summer Recess will be upon us, and many decisions may be taken at the Trades Union Congress which will not be capable of being obviated at a later date.
§ Mr. BarberAs I have said, the discussions which we had with the TUC 218 the other day were concerned with the general economic situation. It is too early to say what the Government will be proposing for the position following phase 2, because this will depend on the discussions with the TUC and the CBI, on our economic situation and prospects at the time, and on our success in phase 2. But I have noted what my hon. Friend has said.
§ Mr. HealeyIn view of the Chancellor's assurance to the House yesterday that he would guarantee an increased living standard for the British people which is reasonable in relation to the 5 per cent. increase in the national wealth which they are currently producing, how will he ensure that at the end of phase 2 working people will be able to make up for the fact that during the whole period of phase 1 and phase 2 the cost of living will have risen at least twice as fast as wages? The Chancellor will surely be aware of the figures he recently published showing that the cost of living during the period of the freeze had risen faster than before the freeze was introduced.
§ Mr. BarberThe whole purpose of our economic strategy and of our counter-inflation policy is, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, to achieve a faster rate of growth and rising living standards.
The most recent figures show that over the past 12 months earnings have certainly risen more than prices. The right hon. Gentleman asked what is a reasonable increase in consumers' expenditure. I can assure him that it is not reasonable that total output and consumers' expenditure should grow at only 2 per cent. a year, which was the average for the years 1964 to 1970. The present Government have succeeded in doubling the rate of economic growth and in trebling the rate at which the standard of living has been rising.
§ Mr. Russell KerrFor whom?
§ Mr. BarberI am sure that the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), even if only in interrogative form, will wish to congratulate the Government.
§ Mr. HealeyDoes the Chancellor propose, on any occasion before the next General Election, to answer one question which is put to him by the Opposition? 219 If he wants to break his record, will he answer the question I put a moment ago? Does he not agree that during the whole period of his prices and incomes policy, since last November, the cost of living has risen three times faster than earnings?
§ Mr. BarberI have given the right hon. Gentleman the latest figures.