HC Deb 15 May 1973 vol 856 cc1238-41
Q3. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Prime Minister when he expects to finalise and publish the provisions of phase 3 of the prices and incomes policy.

The Prime Minister

It is as yet too early to say. Proposals for stage 3 will be published well before stage 2 ends, which we at present envisage will be at about the end of October.

Mr. Hamilton

As phase 3 is likely to be effective before the House comes back after the Summer Recess, will the Prime Minister ensure that we have the opportunity to debate this and related matters before we rise for the Summer Recess? Does the Prime Minister's announcement that nothing is barred from discussion mean that the TUC will be able to discuss the possibility of abandoning or freezing increased council house rents, an increase in family allowances and, possibly, the payment of wages through accounts held in the Cayman Islands?

The Prime Minister

The TUC was not only able to but did discuss all the questions which the hon. Gentleman has raised, with the exception of the last one, when we had talks in Chequers and at No. 10 last summer and last autumn. The TUC is well aware that it can raise all matters of this kind which it wishes to discuss.

It will not be possible to announce the details of stage 3 before the House rises in July. That is quite apparent, because we have asked the Pay Board to go into the question of the anomalies which are presented to it by any union or person. Its report is expected at the latest towards the middle of September. We are well aware of the undertakings which have been given to the House about making available the information which is to go into any future code.

Mr. Tugendhat

When my right hon. Friend meets representatives of the TUC and the CBI, will he point out to them that one manifestation of the success of the Government's policies is that the pound is now one of the strongest currencies in the world, that in the last two months it has appreciated substantially against the dollar and quite significantly against the French franc, the guilder and the lira, and that this bodes extremely well for the outlook of our import prices?

The Prime Minister

Yes, my hon. Friend is right—[Laughter.] It may be natural for hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition benches not to wish to see the pound strong. From the point of view of exports, we have a sufficient margin of competitiveness with the pound at its present level, and from the point of view of imports of food and raw materials it is of benefit to us that the pound floats upwards.

Mr. Harold Wilson

With reference to the answer which the right hon. Gentleman gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), does he recall that last year when the trade unions tried to raise matters like rents, food prices, school meals and school milk, he ruled them out in this House on 6th November as being political matters—

The Prime Minister indicated dissent.

Mr. Wilson

That appears in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the proceedings of 6th November at col. 630.

The Prime Minister will also recall interrupting me when I accused him of this and again confirming that these subjects were barred because, as he said, they were political matters decided by the Government.

The Prime Minister indicated dissent.

Mr. Wilson

He said that. Are we to take the more helpful attitude of the Lord President of the Council at Cambridge who nine days ago said that nothing will be ruled out, nothing barred, and that the Government are now prepared to consider whether they will make changes in respect of these previously closed political issues to enable agreement to be reached for phase 3?

The Prime Minister

I repeat that not only were the trade unions able to raise these matters: they did discuss them at Chequers and at the No. 10 talks. They discussed pensions, family allowances, the level of rents and rent rebates. All these matters were discussed. What I made plain to the House and to the TUC and the CBI was that the legislation to enable us to become a member of the European Community, the Act to deal with housing finance and other Acts of this kind had been passed by Parliament and we were not prepared to repeal them. What we were fully prepared to do was to take into account the consequences of this legislation in, for example, the level of rents which had now been fixed, and, where we thought it right, to deal with that. We did so on two occasions following those talks. We dealt with rents by greatly putting up the needs allowance.

Mr. Wilson

Is the right hon. Gentleman simply telling us that discussion was not ruled out of order and will not be ruled out of order again but that, as he has made clear to the House and has not changed this afternoon, he rejected changes in policy on these matters? Does the Lord President's statement mean that the Prime Minister is now prepared to go into the talks with an open mind and change the policy on housing, rents and school meals—where the increase was deferred only for stage 2—or will he close his mind to these questions just as he did last November?

The Prime Minister

The position remains exactly the same. If the trade unions want to raise the question of increased rents and their consequences, or the impact of going into the Community on food prices, or any of these matters, they are perfectly free to put forward their views. They know us well enough to know that we have an open mind and are prepared to listen to them. [Laughter.] That only demonstrates the vast gulf which now exists between the trade union leaders and the Labour Party.