§ Mr. MeacherI beg to move Amendment No. 150, in page 43, line 30, leave out subsection (6).
The subsection says that increases in child allowances payable for short-term benefits are not payable to a married woman who is residing with her husband unless he is incapable of self-support. Why should not increases in child benefits be paid to the wife irrespective of the condition of the husband? Is not this provision anomalous in view of the payment to the wife of family allowances under the 1965 Act even when the man is capable of self-support, is acting as the breadwinner and is looking after the family? Is there not a difference in practice in those two parts of the social system? In view of that discrepancy, is it not important to move towards the family allowance procedure which more appropriately represents current social trends?
I appreciate that the existing situation is a long-standing feature of the scheme, but is not this an example of the need to recognise changing attitudes and values towards the rôle and responsibilities of women? Women are not paid for the work they do at home by way of home responsibility payment, invalidity care allowance or whatever it is finally called.
When we debated this matter in Committee the Minister said that as long as the benefit went to one or other parent, that would be all right, and that as long as it went to the breadwinner, whether it was the man or the woman, that, too, would be all right I have two comments to make on that, and I hope that the Minister will deal with them. If that is his view, how does he explain the great furore that has arisen over whether the husband or the wife should get the child credit under the tax credit proposals?
The distribution of income within the family is extremely important, because 555 in many working-class households there is no sharing, although there is in many middle-class households which have a joint bank account.
This is a point of some substance. It raises again the question of the dependency or independence of married women, and I hope that the Minister will consider it in that context and see whether what has been a long-standing feature of the scheme should be changed in the way that we recommend.
§ 6.30 p.m.
§ Mr. DeanNo one would argue with the proposition that it is desirable that the wife should have income which she can dispose of herself, but what the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) is proposing would have almost the opposite effect to his general aim. The man who is unemployed or incapable of work and entitled to national insurance benefit receives a personal benefit, which is at present £6.75 a week, an increase for his wife of £4.15 a week and increases of benefit for his children which, together with family allowances, where payable, are £2.10 if payable with short-term benefits or £3.30 if payable with long-term benefits.
If the amendment were effected, it would provide an excuse for the bad provider to keep the major share of the benefit for himself and leave his wife to manage as best she could with the benefits she received direct from the Department. The true position is, and has always been, that the benefit received by the husband, although made up from personal benefit and various increases for dependants, togeher with other appropriate additions such as the earnings-related supplement or invalidity allowance, is paid for the family as a whole and is intended to provide resources which the whole family share.
To split the benefit in the way that the hon. Gentleman suggests would tend to lead directly to a situation in which the wife, although she would not have to ask her husband for money, would be receiving less than the share intended for her. I know that that is not what the hon. Member wants, but that would be the effect of his proposal.
In the case of the woman who is left on her own or who has a husband who is 556 incapacitated, there is no barrier to her receiving the allowances for her children.
§ Mr. MeacherThe Under-Secretary of State's answer is rather unsatisfactory. He began by saying that he certainly approved the principle that a woman should be in receipt of income which she would be able to dispose of herself. He then tried to make out, however, that if the amendment were accepted a bad provider, as he called him, would keep the benefit for himself. He was seeking to make out, I think, that, if the child benefits were payable by law to the wife, the remainder of the increase in benefit under the short-term benefit procedure would be retained by the husband. There is no necessary connection between those two propositions.
§ Mr. MeacherThe Under-Secretary may say that it could happen, but we are not insisting on the amendment in order to provide the woman with the allowance for the child that she gets in family allowances. We are not making it more or less likely that there will be a sharing of the rest of the benefit payable in respect of the wife.
It is an anomaly under the family allowance procedure that the woman should have the right to the family allowance but that, under the short-term benefit procedure, child allowances are payable to the husband. There is a discrepancy here to which the Under-Secretary has not addressed himself. Presumably, on his argument, we should move over to giving the family allowances to the husband. I am sure the Minister would not agree with that. If he does not, will he explain why we should not have a comparable procedure to short-service benefits, which are in no way necessarily likely to lead to any diminution of benefit for the wife?
Because this is an important matter, because, again, we are bringing up the need to give greater financial independence and autonomy to the wife and the need to make the social security system responsive to changes in social climate, this is an amendment of considerable importance and I therefore recommend my hon. Friends to vote for it.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
558§ The House divided: Ayes 158, Noes 176.
559| Division No. 129.1 | AYES | [6.35 p.m. |
| Ashlon, Joe | Gilbert, Dr. John | Orbach, Maurice |
| Atkinson, Norman | Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury) | Orme, Stanley |
| Barnes, Michael | Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) |
| Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton) | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Padley, Walter |
| Beaney, Alan | Hamling, William | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Hardy, Peter | Pardoe, John |
| Bennett, James(Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Harper, Joseph | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Pendry, Tom |
| Bishop, E. S. | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. |
| Booth, Albert | Hattersley, Roy | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Radice, Giles |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Reed, D. (Sedgefield) |
| Bradley, Tom | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Brc'n&R'dnor) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Janner Greville | Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Ross, Hn. William (Kilmarnock) |
| Buchan, Norman | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | John, Brynmor | Sandelson, Neville |
| Carmichael, Neil | Johnson Walter (Derby S.) | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Jones.Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) | Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) | Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hampton, N.E.) |
| Coleman, Donald | Kaufman, Gerald | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Kelley, Richard | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth) | Lamborn, Harry | Skinners, Dennis |
| Crawshaw, Richard | ||
| Cronin, john | Lamond, james | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Latham, Arthur | Stallard, A. W. |
| Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) | Leonard, Dick | Strang, Gavin |
| Dalyell, Tarn | Lestor, miss Joan | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | Lomas, Kenneth | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | McElhone, Frank | Swain, Thomas |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | MaGuire, Micheal | |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Mackenzie, Gregor | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Davies, Terry (Bromsgrove) | Mackie, John | Tope, Graham |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Mackintosh, John P. | Varley, Eric G. |
| Delargy, Hugh | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | McNamara, J. Kevin | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Doig, Peter | ||
| Dormand, J. D. | Marks, kenneth | Wallace, George |
| Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire E) | Marquand, David | Watkins, David |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Duff, A. E. P. | Meacher, Michael | Whitlock, William |
| Dunn, James A. | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Dunnett Jack | Mendalson, John | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Mikardo, Ian | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hltchin) |
| Ewinq, Harry | Millan, Bruce | Williams, W. T. (Warrlngton) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Mitchell, R. C. (S'hamplon, ltchen) | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Woof, Robert |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Moyle, Roland | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Foot, Michael | O'Halloran, Michael | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Ford, Ben | O'Malley, Brian | Mr. J. D. Concannon. |
| Gatpern, Sir Myer | Oram, Bert | |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Bryan, Sir Paul | Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempsead) | Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tl8-upon-Tyne,N.) |
| Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian | Chapman, Sydney | Eyre, Reginald |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Chichester-Clark, R. | Farr, John |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Churchill, W. S. | Fell, Anthony |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Fenner, Mrs. Peggy |
| Bell, Ronald | Cockeram, Eric | Fidler, Michael |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Cooke, Robert | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles |
| Benyon, W. | Coombs, Derek | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Bitten, John | Cooper, A. E. | Fowler, Norman |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Corfield, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick | Fox, Marcus |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Cormack, Patrick | Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford a Stone) |
| Body, Richard | Costain, A. P. | Gardner, Edward |
| Boscawen, Hn. Robert | Critchley, Julian | Gibson-Watt, David |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Crowder, F. P. | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) |
| Bowden, Andrew | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen.Jack | Glyn, Dr. Alan |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Dean, Paul | Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. |
| Bracklebenk-Fowler, Christopher | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. | Goodhew, Victor |
| Brown. Sir Edward (Bath) | Dixon, Piers | Gower, Raymond |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Drayson, G. B. | Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) |
| Gray, Hamish | McLaren, Martin | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Green, Alan | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Grieve, Percy | McNair-Wilson Michael | Shersby, Michael |
| Gummer, J. Selwyn | Madel, David | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Gurden, Harold | Mather, Carol | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Maude, Angus | Soref, Harold |
| Hannam, John (Exeter) | Mawby, Ray | Speed, Keith |
| Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Spence, John |
| Haselhurst Alan | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper) |
| Hastings Stephen | Mills, Stration (Belfast, N.) | Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.) |
| Hawkins Paul | Miscampbell, Norman | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Hayhoe Barney | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Sutcliffe, John |
| Hiley Joseph | Molyneaux, James | Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Holland Philip | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Hordern' Peter | More, Jasper | Temple, John M. |
| Hornsby-Smith.Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Howell David (Guildford) | Morrison, Charles | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) |
| Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Murton, Oscar | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Neave, Airey | Trew, Peter |
| James, David | Nott, John | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Oppenheim Mrs. Sally | Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin |
| Jessel, Toby | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Osborn, John | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Johnson, Michael | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | Waddington, David |
| Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Page, rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby) | walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Walder, David (Clitheore) |
| Kimball, Marcus | Percival, lan | Ward, Dame Irene |
| King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)) | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John | Warren, kenneth |
| King, Tom (Bridge | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Kinsey, J. R. | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Knox, David | Raison, Timothy | Wilkinson, John |
| Lamont, Norman | Redmond, Robert | winterton, Nicholas |
| Lane, David | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Langford-Holt Sir John | Rees, Peter (Dover) | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Le Marchant, Spencer | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Worsley, Marcus |
| Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'lh, Langstone) | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Younger, Hn. George |
| Loveridge, John | Ridsdale, Julian | |
| Luce, R. N. | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES |
| MacArthur, Ian | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Mr. Tim Fortescue and |
| McCrindle, R. A. | Scott, Nicholas | Mr. Kenneth Clarke. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.