§ Q5. Sir G. Nabarroasked the Prime Minister whether he will now seek to meet Mr. Ian Smith to resume discussions on all outstanding difficulties, including the United Nations sanctions.
§ The Prime MinisterWe have made it clear to Mr. Smith that what is now required is agreement between the races in Rhodesia on the basis for a settlement. We are ready at any time to respond to such an agreement.
§ Sir G. NabarroIs not the most serious aspect of these matters the fact that the whole of the United Kingdom's trade with Rhodesia has now been virtually sabotaged and taken by the Americans, the Japanese, the West Germans and others— in other words, our most powerful trade competitors all over the world? Are we to sit on the sidelines indefinitely and allow these people to sequestrate our overseas trade?
§ The Prime MinisterThe loss of trade to the United Kingdom is and has been one aspect since the Rhodesian problem began, but it is only one aspect. The other aspect was that the settlement which we worked out was shown by the Pearce Commission not to be acceptable to the 204 great majority of the African population. If my hon. Friend is referring solely to economic matters, I should point out that the impact on British trade in the rest of the African continent has to be considered as well.
§ Mr. CallaghanIs the Prime Minister aware that, in the view of a growing number of people, it is time that we brought to an end this period of waiting for Mr. Smith to produce an agreement? Is he aware that the security situation in Rhodesia is deteriorating very fast, that there is a growing danger of bloodshed there and that the time has now come for the British Government to call together for fresh discussions not only Mr. Smith but the Africans, who must be involved in any settlement, otherwise in default of this the situation will continue to deteriorate, there will be bloodshed and the African leadership will pass into more extreme hands?
§ The Prime MinisterI agree with the right hon. Gentleman. There has always been a danger of internal violence in Rhodesia, particularly perhaps from those who come into Rhodesia from outside.
As to the British Government bringing together Mr. Smith and the Africans, that depends on the two parties being prepared to talk together under British Government auspices.
§ Sir J. Langford-HoltMay I ask my right hon. Friend to tell us whether, in the Government's view, sanctions will become effective in weeks rather than months? Alternatively, does he agree that there may be an argument for and against sanctions but that there is no argument for sanctions which do not work?
§ The Prime MinisterThere is absolutely no doubt that one reason why Mr. Smith was prepared to negotiate with the Foreign Secretary and to work out an agreement which it was hoped would be acceptable to the Africans was that sanctions were continuing.
§ Mr. RoseIs the Prime Minister aware that there is only one outstanding difficulty—the continuing state of treason and rebellion by Mr. Smith and his friends in Rhodesia? Will he therefore take fresh initiatives to ensure that sanctions are rigorously applied and extended by all 205 United Nations members? Is he aware that the problem arises because of a cynical dual standard there and by the lack of determination, for which we all share in the blame, to bring to heel a group of men who have shown their willingness to imprison, to detain and to execute people who are under the protection of this Parliament?
§ The Prime MinisterThe Government ensure that their obligations to the United Nations on sanctions are carried out. I differ from the hon. Gentleman in that I think that the only way of dealing with the problem is to produce a settlement acceptable to all races in Rhodesia.
§ Mr. AwdryWhatever we may think of the Smith régime, do not recent events indicate that there is in Southern Rhodesia a system of appeal which is a proper system of appeal that is totally absent in other African States which continually criticise the Smith régime?
§ The Prime MinisterI do not see why this should be a matter for dispute. One can dispute about the terms on which Mr. Niesewand was allowed to leave Rhodesia. One cannot dispute the fact that after a court decision there was a means of appeal and the higher court came to a different conclusion.
§ Mr. Harold WilsonOn the point made by the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Awdry), is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no system of appeal whatsoever for a very large number of Africans who have been in detention for a very long period and that, indeed, in the Matamabuto case there has been a decision by the Privy Council in this matter?
Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that we should all like to congratulate him on the answers he has given this afternoon, particularly his repeated answers on sanctions, remembering the line which he himself took when the sanctions were imposed? Will he now answer the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) when he put his question? Is it still the fact, as the Foreign Secretary told us earlier in the year, that the draft agreement of last year, which was turned down by the Africans and the Pearce Commission, still 206 lies on the table? Should it not now be made clear that it does not lie on the table but will require substantial amendment as well as African approval?
§ The Prime MinisterI am well aware of the first point made by the right hon. Gentleman. Of course, he will recall that in the settlement negotiated by my right hon. Friend provision was made for the commission to deal with detainees.
On the last part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, I do not think one needs to split hairs about this, but surely the position is that one wants Mr. Smith and the Africans to discuss together a settlement, and the basis of this can be the agreement which was worked out with amendments made by either side in the discussions they may undertake. I see no point in removing this entirely from the table and then saying that they have to start all over again, either on the last Rhodesian constitution or on the 1961 constitution.