HC Deb 26 March 1973 vol 853 cc919-22
Mr. Speaker

Order. I am afraid I have a rather lengthy ruling to give to the House.

On Thursday 15th March the hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham) drew the attention of the House to the rule stated on page 325 of Erskine May, that Questions about proposals or statements by Ministers or Departmental Representatives attending conferences or negotiations on behalf of the Government should … be addressed to the Minister in charge of the Department concerned", and asked whether this practice should continue to apply in cases when a Minister was speaking in the European Parliament not only as a Minister of the United Kingdom Government, but as a member of the Council of Ministers.

Although the precise context in which this matter has arisen is novel, it represents no new situation. Ministers of the Crown have for many years addressed the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe and the Assembly of the Western European Union whilst also being members of the ministerial bodies allied to those assemblies, and, as far as I am aware, the rule to which the hon. Member referred has always been applied to Questions about speeches made in such circumstances.

I should point out that this practice, to which Mr. Speaker Hylton-Foster gave formal expression by a private ruling in 1963, to which the footnote in Erskine May refers, represents a loosening rather than a tightening of restraints upon hon. Members. Usually, where a speech is made outside the House by a Minister, the only question which can be asked about it is an inquiry to the Prime Minister whether it represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government. Where, however, a speech is made by a ministerial representative at a formal international conference, the Minister concerned or, if he does not bear the ultimate departmental responsibility, the Minister who does, can be questioned in detail about the substance of the speech itself.

It would, for this reason, be entirely open to the hon. Member to put down a Question to the Foreign Secretary asking whether the Chancellor of the Duchy, in making a specified observation before the European Parliament, had been expressing the particular view of the United Kingdom Government or the general view of the Council of Ministers. There is no reason why the Chancellor of the Duchy himself should not answer such a Question, and no doubt he would normally wish to do so.

This leads me to the other point which was raised on the same occasion by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Robert Hughes) relating to the addressing of Questions concerning European affairs direct to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster rather than to the Foreign Secretary.

The Chancellor of the Duchy acts in two separate capacities. On the one hand, he is the head of the independent Department which administers the affairs of the Duchy of Lancaster, and a special place is assigned to him in the rota for answering Questions on matters concerning it. On the other hand, however, he also has responsibility for the co-ordination of Government policies in relation to the European Communities and acts on behalf of the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary who is the Government representative in the Council of Ministers. Questions on this part of his work are therefore appropriately addressed to the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.

Mr. George Cunningham

I am most grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for your ruling. I believe that hon. Members would wish, as I am sure you would wish them, to look at it with some care over time.

May I ask for clarification on one point? My concern was that I seemed to be debarred from asking the Prime Minister whether the speech by the Chancellor of the Duchy represented the policy of Her Majesty's Government on the ground that there was always a presumption that a Minister, when speaking abroad, did represent the policy of the Government. Do I take it that that question is in this instance permissible to ask the Foreign Secretary, but not the Prime Minister who is the Minister one normally asks, whether a speech represents the policy of the Government?

Mr. Speaker

Speaking off the cuff, I think that the answer depends on the capacity in which the Minister has been answering. The hon. Member will see, when he studies my ruling, that if a Minister is speaking in his capacity as a member of the Council of Ministers, the appropriate person to question is the head of the Department. I have no doubt that the business will be adjusted by the kind of transfer procedure which takes place. I think the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question depends on the capacity in which the Minister is speaking. If he is speaking as a Minister, the appropriate person to ask is the Prime Minister. If he is speaking as a member of the Council of Ministers, then the appropriate person to ask is the head of the Department.

Mr. Michael Foot

While we all wish to study your reply, Mr. Speaker, and are most grateful for it, may I ask whether it means that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is not an independent Minister when dealing with Common Market affairs, but when he goes to Europe he is entirely subordinate to the Foreign Office and the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs? Some might think that that introduces a novelty into the situation which we shall wish to study. Is the meaning of your ruling, in effect, that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is in the same position as any other Minister attached to the Foreign Office?

Mr. Speaker

Except when he acts in his capacity as Chancellor of the Duchy he is a Minister within the Foreign Office.

Mr. Foot

I am sorry to persist. The Minister seemed to take a somewhat different view. We wish to clarify the matter. If the Minister wishes to assist us, I am sure that the House would be eager to hear what he has to say. We understood from what you said that the Minister would not be able to speak independently in Europe. That raises constitutional questions. Therefore, we would like to clarify the matter. If the Minister would assist, I am sure that the House would be grateful.

Mr. Speaker

When I said a moment ago that the Chancellor of the Duchy was a Minister within the Foreign Office, it was merely my shorthand way of expressing it. I have clearly said and should have repeated, that he is responsible for the co-ordination of Government policies in relation to the European Communities and acts on behalf of the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary who is the Government representative in the Council of Ministers. I think that describes the position precisely.