Northern Ireland (Hansard, 20 March 1973)

§ 14. Mr. Duffy
asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a further statement on the operations of the British Army in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Ian Gilmour
In support of the civil authorities the Army is continuing to combat terrorism and to control violence, from whatever quarter they may arise.

§ Mr. Duffy
The Minister has reminded the House once more of the tension and the exacting rôle of the British soldier in Northern Ireland, perhaps never more so than at this moment. Would he also remind the House of the leave arrangements for non-garrison troops in Northern Ireland and say whether he is in a position favourably to review them?

§ Mr. Gilmour
Is the hon. Gentleman talking about force levels?

§ Mr. Duffy
No. Leave arrangements for non-garrison troops.

§ Mr. Gilmour
We have looked at this matter. The difficulty is that the troops who are there on four-months' duty are under considerable pressure, yet it is important to keep a high percentage of a unit on duty at the same time or additional units would be necessary. I cannot be any more helpful than that.

§ Mr. McMaster
Is my hon. Friend aware of the great debt of gratitude owed by the people of Northern Ireland to the brave rôle of British soldiers there? Will he confirm that the Government intend, as soon as practicable, to transfer the duties being performed by the Army to the police in Northern Ireland?

§ Mr. Gilmour
I entirely agree with the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I am grateful for what he has said. It has always been the object of both the Army and the Government that the enforcement of law 221 and order should be taken over by the civil authorities as soon as possible.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley
Does the Minister agree that, in order that the Army might carry out its duties, the living standards of soldiers should be the best possible? Is he satisfied that these men, who are serving with courage and sacrifice, have proper living standards? Will he inform the House what he has in mind to help forward the making available of facilities for these men?

§ Mr. Gilmour
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We are not satisfied with the living conditions of our troops in Northern Ireland. We have spent a lot of money and done a great deal to improve them, and this is a continuing process.

§ 17. Mr. Stratton Mills
asked the Minister of State for Defence how many security incidents have there been in the Duncairn Gardens area of Belfast in each of the last 12 months; and what steps he proposes to improve security arrangements in the district.

§ Mr. Blaker
It would require disproportionate effort to provide figures for each of the last 12 months, but I have examined the situation in the area. Since the beginning of this year there have been 13 shooting incidents, one explosion and three riots in the immediate vicinity of Duncairn Gardens, and there have been a considerable number of shooting incidents in Edlingham and Lepper Streets.
The security forces have taken and will continue to take all practicable steps to combat violence in this and adjacent areas.

§ Mr. Mills
I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. Does he recognise that the situation in this area of Belfast is deteriorating with the attacks on individuals and property, the attacks on churches and church congregations and recently, on Friday night, the tragic murder of a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment? Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that special attention will be paid by the security authorities to this area to deal with the situation?

§ Mr. Blaker
I fully recognise the justifiable concern of my hon. Friend for this area. I can assure him that the repre- 222 sentations which have been made to my right hon. Friend by deputations, of which he has formed part, in recent days are being carefully considered, as is the deployment of troops in the area.

§ Mr. Wiggin
Would it not make the task of the security forces considerably easier, and particularly in Belfast, if Her Majesty's Government were to introduce a curfew?

§ Mr. Blaker
That, I think, is a matter for my right hon. Friend.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley
Is my hon. Friend aware that certain church congregations in Duncairn Gardens are seriously perturbed as it is almost impossible for them to hold their Sunday evening services? Can he assure the House that the Army will be on the ground to give them at least the assurance of their military presence in the area, especially as these people come and go to their church services on Sunday evening?

§ Mr. Blaker
I am sure that the remarks of the hon. Gentleman will be noted. Indeed, I shall see that they are. The detailed deployment of the forces from time to time must be a matter for the GOC.

§ 19. Mr. Biggs-Davison
asked the Minister of State for Defence what are his plans for the progressive replacement of Army units by local forces in support of the civil powers in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Blaker
None at present, Sir, though, as my hon. Friend said earlier, it has always been the intention that the duties of the Army would be taken over by the civil authorities as soon as possible. Meanwhile, the size of the Regular Army in Northern Ireland is kept under constant review to ensure that there are adequate numbers in the Province.

§ Mr. Biggs-Davison
Despite the splendid volunteer services in Northern Ireland, is not the numerical involvement of the population in its own defence entirely inadequate? When will the Government get on with placing Regular companies in UDR battalions, particularly near the border?

§ Mr. Blaker
With regard to the level of the volunteer activities in Northern Ireland, we would welcome more volunteers 223 for the UDR. My hon. Friend will be aware that I dealt with full-time companies in my speech last Thursday. Among other things, the creation of full-time companies would not lead to any reduction in Regular force levels.

§ Mr. McMaster
Will my hon. Friend bear in mind, and instruct the GOC in Northern Ireland to bear in mind, the importance of building up the numbers, morale and degree of involvement of the members of the RUC in helping to deal with the disturbances in Northern Ireland?

§ Mr. Blaker
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, but that is really a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Wiggin
Is it possible for the Army to enlist the services of the TAVR units in Ulster? If that is not possible under the emergency regulations, will my hon. Friend seek to introduce legislation to make it possible?

§ Mr. Blaker
My hon. Friend will recall that I dealt with this matter also in my speech on Thursday. I pointed out that the rôle of the TAVR is principally to act as a reserve for the Regular Army as a whole but that members of the TAVR in Northern Ireland may join the UDR with reserved rights if they want to transfer back to the TAVR.

§ 20. Mr. Leadbitter
asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the strength and complement of the British Army forces in Northern Ireland; and how many soldiers are stationed there with an enlistment service of less than one year.

§ Mr. Blaker
The Regular force level in Northern Ireland at present totals 20 major units in the infantry rôle and six armoured reconnaissance squadrons, plus various minor supporting units. This force level amounts to about 17,500 troops.
It is not possible without disproportionate effort to determine how many soldiers there have completed less than one year's service.

§ Mr. Leadbitter
The latter part of the Minister's reply is of vital importance. The whole country is concerned about the use of very young soldiers in North- 224 ern Ireland. Apart from the question of the hon. Member for Chigwell Mr. Biggs-Davison) about the replacement of our forces by civil forces in Northern Ireland, does the Minister accept that there is now a need for the House to know the number of young soldiers involved in Northern Ireland, the extent of their welfare and the degree to which pressures and strains are placed upon-them? There are great difficulties for young soldiers who lack experience. Finally, the House should have an overall statement about the housing of our soldiers, their recreation and their leave.

§ Mr. Blaker
The hon. Gentleman has asked a great many questions, some of which have been dealt with in the defence debate. Others will no doubt come up in the Army Estimates debate. If the hon. Gentleman is casting any doubt on the skill of our young soldiers in Northern Ireland, that is effectively set at rest by what has been said by Members on both sides of the House in the defence debate about their great skill. As regards the minimum age at which they are allowed to go there, the hon. Gentleman may not be aware that until recently and for some years past it was the rule that they could go from the age of 17½. We have raised that to 18.

§ Dr. Glyn
Is my hon. Friend aware that, whatever he said on Thursday, there is a deep awareness in the country in general that there is a need to move from Regular forces in Northern Ireland to some form of civil action in that country, and that the sooner we do that the better?

§ Mr. Blaker
I am not quite clear of the implication of my hon. Friend's question. It is possible for those who wish to aid the preservation of security in Northern Ireland to enlist in the UDR or the RUC.