HC Deb 12 March 1973 vol 852 cc887-91
Mrs. Shirley Williams

(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied with the co-ordination between the City Police and the Metropolitan Police in respect of the recent bomb emergency, and if he will make a statement about his recent talks with both forces.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Robert Carr)

Yes, Sir. The two forces co-operated effectively in taking the additional precautions which were put in hand in central London on 8th March from the early morning onwards. They are also co-operating closely and effectively in the follow up of last Thursday's events. In particular, they are working together in the criminal investigations arising from the explosion which took place outside the Old Bailey.

When I made inquiries on the evening of 8th March, I found that the two Commissioners of Police were already sifting the lessons to be learned from the day's events and, in particular, were together examining how time had been lost in identifying the exact location of the Old Bailey bomb. The City Commissioner has made a public statement explaining how this occurred, but, apart from this unfortunate but isolated human error, the procedures followed and the action taken by the two forces in dealing promptly with a most difficult and dangerous situation reflect, I believe, a high level of co-operation and efficiency.

Mrs. Williams

We on this side of the House echo the praise which the Home Secretary has offered to the Metropolitan Police and have put down a motion to that effect. It is not my purpose to point to a particular human error, but I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, first, whether in view of the emergencies which have only recently arisen, it is wise to have a separate city force within London? Secondly, on a more immediate matter, may I ask whether the statement made by the head of the City of London CID to the effect that no special patrols were in operation within the City of London is a situation which can possibly be allowed to continue in view of the danger to the City as well as to the Metropolitan district?

Mr. Carr

If we were starting again to create a police force, we might have a single police force for the whole of the London area. But that is not the situation. I believe that traditions and practices in these matters are important. and as long as I am satisfied, as I am, that the two forces are now co-operating closely together, I believe that that is what will lead to greater security for the people of London than would be afforded by the enormous upheaval, argument and controversy which would be caused by any radical change. I am satisfied that the co-operation is effective. I believe that it was effective before last Thursday. The one human error was very unfortunate, but I think that is what it was

I am satisfied that, starting from the top, the two forces are working closely together. We can learn from what happened last Thursday. For example, in the next few weeks we can see the two forces beginning to exchange people, working in each other's control rooms so that they are sure of each other's procedures. It is possible that we shall hear talk about the formation of a joint mobile unit to cover the City and the rest of central London, which is the point principally covered, I think, by the police officer to whom the hon. Lady referred.

Mr. Tugendhat

The hon. Lady the Member for Hitchin (Mrs. Shirley Williams) referred to the unexpected emergencies which have arisen in recent clays. Is my right hon. Friend able to answer two questions? First, is he aware that everybody in London, including Westminster, was filled with admiration for the striking hospital workers who went back to work to meet the emergency? Secondly, has he been able to have any discussions with the police and with ASLEF concerning the effects which the train drivers' strike has on traffic coming into London and on the difficulties which the police may have in maintaining the surveillance necessary at this unfortunate time?

Mr. Can

I am sure that the whole House agrees with my hon. Friend's expression of admiration for the promptness with which the hospital workers returned to their jobs and the way in which St. Bartholomew's, St. Thomas's and the other hospitals involved dealt, with great effectiveness and speed, with a very large number of casualties. The fact that most of the casualties, thank goodness, turned out to be not serious in a fundamental way did not lessen the enormous task of those hospitals in coping with so many people in such a short time.

On the second point, it cannot be denied that the train drivers' strike last Thursday made the job of the terrorists much easier and the job of the police much more difficult.

Mr. Roy Jenkins

Without wishing to make too much of a particular incident, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can put forward any argument, other than that of tradition, to show why the City force should remain independent and, if he is planning for the future, why it should be treated differently, except for the legislative position, from that of many great cites with populations of up to 300,000 or 400,000 which have lost their independent forces?

Mr. Carr

It is perhaps natural for me and for my right hon. and hon. Friends to pay a little more attention to the importance of tradition than do hon. Members opposite. This is very largely a matter of tradition. As I said openly in response to the question of the hon. Lady the Member for Hitchin (Mrs. Shirley Williams), if we were starting again from scratch we would not have two forces. What I want the House to think about is this: will London be better policed over these critical months and in the year or two ahead if we continue with close co-operation between the existing two forces or if we go in for all the controversy and upset which, at this juncture, would no doubt be caused by creating a single force?

Mr. Fowler

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it has never been proved that bigger police forces mean better police forces and that the mistake which was made could have been made by a police force of any size? Is it not absurd to base a proposal for amalgamation—which, incidentally, was rejected by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins)—on one incident alone?

Mr. Carr

I am sure that what happened on Thursday is no case for amalgamating the two. When the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) carried out the original amalgamation of police forces a few years ago, presumably he must have considered this suggestion, as I did and as my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) did, and must have decided against it.

Mr. David Steel

Is it the case that the work of the highly effective mobile unit is confined to the area of the Metroplitan Police?

Mr. Carr

Yes, and that is why I mentioned that perhaps one of the lessons to be learned from what happened last Thursday is that there could and should be a joint mobile unit to cover the whole area.

Mr. George Cunningham

Will the right hon. Gentleman assist the House by confirming or denying that if the Metropolitan Police last week had covered the whole of London, including the City, there would have been no need for the message which was messed up and that the police would have been dispatched straight to the Old Bailey?

Mr. Carr

I do not think that that follows, because the misinterpretation of the message could have occurred within one force as much as between two forces. I was at particular pains to be assured about that. It was not a breakdown in procedure or a lack of procedure. It was a human error in interpreting a message which was received. I do not complain about this, because we all act impulsively and quickly in these matters, but a message would have had to be transmitted because The Times, instead of dialling 999, got on to the Press bureau of Scotland land Yard, which inevitably caused a transmission of messages rather than straight-through communication.

Sir Gilbert Longden

Does my right hon. Friend accept that in these and similar cases it helps no one except the criminal for every cautionary plan taken by the police and every plan they may have in future to be mooted abroad twice a day by the mass media?

Mr. Carr

There is bound to be public concern about these matters. To that extent they are bound to be mooted abroad, and I do not complain about that. I appreciate the attitude shown by the whole House to this matter. There is a wide appreciation in this House and outside that of all that was done on Thursday, the great bulk of it was very well done and the safety of London has gained a lot by it. There was this one error. I hope that the City Police in particular will gain some credit for not covering it up but openly and quickly coming forward and saying that there was an error.

Mrs. Shirley Williams

Yes, indeed. But may I point out that it was the head of the City CID who told the newspapers that there were no mobile patrols in the City of London? We would not have raised that matter had it not been made public. Therefore, it is a matter of the greatest urgency that mobile patrols should be established as quickly as possible, because every terrorist in the world now knows that the City of London does not have the same protection as the metropolitan area.

Mr. Carr

I agree that this is a matter of urgency. I am treating it as such, and I assure the House that the two Commissioners of Police are treating it as such.