HC Deb 01 March 1973 vol 851 cc1684-5
10. Mr. Farr

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what has been the number of convictions under Section 20(2) of the Firearms Act 1968 relating to armed trespass; and what has been the average fine imposed.

Mr. Carlisle

In the years 1969 to 1971, 3,358 persons were found guilty in England and Wales of offences under Section 20(2) of the Firearms Act 1968. Of these, 3,037 were fined: the average fine was £6.99.

Mr. Farr

I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for what he said, but does he not agree that it is ridiculous that a trivial fine of this nature should be paid for a serious offence? Will he ask the Home Secretary to call the Lord Chancellor's attention to this aspect of crime, bearing in mind that the maximum fine laid down by Parliament is £200 with a sentence of six months' imprisonment?

Mr. Carlisle

I can repeat only what my hon. Friend well knows—that it is not for Home Office Ministers to comment on the use of the court's powers to sentence in individual cases. However, I confirm that under the Criminal Justice Act as from 1st January this year the maximum penalty was raised from £100 to £200 and the courts should take note of the maximum penalty as the framework within which they act. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary heard my hon. Friend's comments.

Mr. John Fraser

Will the Minister of State say whether that fine is also typical of non-poaching offences, because if that is so it is ludicrous? Will he let us know what happened as the result of the discussions with the Lord Chancellor on sentencing policy?

Mr. Carlisle

All I can say is that if the hon. Member puts down a Question I shall try to give him an answer on other types of firearms offences. I cannot do so without notice.

Mr. Fidler

In view of the ease with which firearms can be purchased—and I refer not to toy guns but to deadly Lugers and the like—in the greater London area by people without a licence, is it not obvious that the deterrents are not sufficiently heavy? Has my hon. and learned Friend considered increasing the penalties and, more particularly, reintroducing capital punishment where death results from the use of firearms?

Mr. Carlisle

For the type of offences that my hon. Friend has in mind we have substantially increased the maximum penalties, in most cases up to life, for the use of firearms in these circumstances. My hon. Friend will have heard my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary say earlier that we are considering the report on the control of firearms and that he hopes shortly to be in a position to put proposals before the House. As for the last part of the question, the Government have no further comment to make.

Mr. Raphael Tuck

In view of the grave consequences of offences of this type does not the Minister think that it would be more sensible to specify minimum terms of imprisonment and minimum fines?

Mr. Carlisle

It depends on the type of offences that the hon. Member has in mind. Section 22 deals with trespassing on land while armed. The maximum penalty for that offence is a fine of £200. I do not agree with the idea of minimum penalties. Minimum penalties, either imprisonment or fines, create injustice because they do not allow the court to take adequately into account all the circumstances.

Mr. Farr

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to give notice that in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.