HC Deb 25 June 1973 vol 858 cc1125-32
30. Mr. Horam

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what further discussions the Government propose to have with the North of England Development Council about the Hardman Report on the dispersal of civil servants.

38. Mr. Radice

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what discussions he had with bodies in the Northern Region, including the North of England Development Council, about the Hardman Report on the dispersal of civil servants.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Civil Service Department (Mr. Kenneth Baker)

I saw a delegation from this council before the report was published. I sent the council a copy of the report on the day of publication. If it wishes to discuss the report with me, I shall welcome it, but I have not yet received a request for this.

Mr. Horam

Dispersal to Milton Keynes and Southend is not dispersal at all, because it still leaves the majority of civil servants in the South-East. The Government should be setting a different trend. In the Northern Region only 4.8 per cent. of all jobs are in the clerical and administrative class—indisputably the lowest percentage of any English region—compared with 11.1 per cent. in the London area. Will the Minister keep this sort of thing in mind when the Government consider the Hardman Report?

Mr. Baker

Yes, I can assure the hon. Member that I shall. He is not quite accurate, however. Seven out of 10 civil servants work and live outside London and the South-East. I can assure him that the Hardman Report is a consultative document, that my door is open, and that I am willing to receive representations from any region and any area.

Mr. Radice

I thank the Minister for his courtesy in receiving representations and deputations, but may I remind him that the Hardman Report is only the latest in a series of disappointments about the dispersal of civil servants? Is he aware, for example, that the Northern Region lost 2,000 jobs, which were promised to Washington new town but went to the South-East?

Mr. Baker

I know that our decision not to proceed with the location of the PAYE centre at Washington caused disappointment in the area, but if the House agrees to the establishment of the tax credit system it is our intention to establish the computer centre for it at Washington. Perhaps I could remind the hon. Member that the city that has most civil servants outside London is Newcastle.

31. Mr. Hicks

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what discussions have taken place, and if any further are intended, between the Government and the South-West Regional Planning Council and Cornwall County Council following receipt of the Hardman Report on the possibility of civil servants being dispersed to the South-West Development area.

Mr. Keneth Baker

Neither of these bodies has been in discussion with the Government but I am very willing to see them if they wish.

Mr. Hicks

Is my hon. Friend the Minister aware that the South-West Development Area is the only development area that will not receive any Government offices under the recommendations of the Hardman Report? Is he also aware that there is one self-contained unit of modest dimensions, namely, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, which would be very well suited to meet the needs of a small town such as Bodmin or Liskeard within the South-West in the attempts of those towns to improve the job quality opportunities for the area?

Mr. Baker

I am aware of the point raised by my hon. Friend and I shall be pleased to receive representations. One of the reasons for Sir Henry Hardman's recommendation that the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board should go to Plymouth rather than farther afield is that it should remain close to its parent Department—the Home Office—which he recommended should in part go to Plymouth. However, I am ready to receive representations from any part of the South-West Development Area.

32. Mr. Edward Taylor

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what recent discussions he has had on the Hardman Report.

36. Mr. Millan

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what representations the Government have had from Scotland since the publication of the Hardman Report.

37. Mr. Grimond

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what action he proposes over the Hardman Report; and, in particular, if he will now place the whole of the oil office in Scotland.

Mr. Kenneth Baker

I have so far received only one request for a discussion from a town in England and none from Scotland. I am of course ready to consider any that are made.

The location of offices dealing with oil is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, but as already announced the offshore supplies office will be based in London while the Scottish petroleum office will be in Glasgow.

Mr. Taylor

Scottish Conservative Members of Parliament have asked for an urgent meeting with the Prime Minister because there is considerable resentment in Scotland that, according to the report, only 1,200 of the 30,000 jobs are suitable for Scotland. Will my hon. Friend the Minister give an absolute assurance that before a final recommendation is made on policy on the report my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland will be directly involved in the discussions?

Mr. Baker

Yes, I can. All Ministers will be involved, because the arrangements of their Departments will be affected and it would make a mockery of consultation if such involvement did not take place. It is the Government's intention to receive representations and to hear views expressed from Scotland generally, and I can give my hon. Friend the assurance for which he has asked.

Mr. Millan

Apart from the insensitivity of the report from the point of view of regional policy and the dismissal of Scotland and Wales as irrelevancies, which has caused great offence in Scotland, is the Minister aware that one of the most unsatisfactory features of the report is the section dealing with travel, where the difficulties of travel between Glasgow and London are grossly exaggerated? Will he look at that matter again before final decisions are made?

Mr. Baker

I can assure the hon. Member that I shall. As for his views about Sir Henry Hardman's use of the word "irrelevant", I suggest that the hon. Member reads it in the context in which it was written. As for travel, Sir Henry was looking at policy units and not executive blocks of work, and was concerned not so much with distance as with the frequency of communication between the bodies that are dispersed and the centre. Even after allowing for telecommunications and improved communications in other respects, about 30 per cent. of all communications at policy level in the Civil Service have to be face to face, and that is the nub of the problem.

34. Mr. David Steel

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether, in view of the absence of recommendations in the Hardman Report concerning dispersal of civil servants to non-urban areas, he will consider sites in Scotland for smaller Government offices leaving London in future.

Mr. Kenneth Baker

It is, I confess, difficult to contemplate dispersal to non-urban areas. Under the Government's existing dispersal and new office policies, however, the assisted areas, including Scotland, are always carefully considered when decisions on locating Government work are taken. These policies will continue.

Mr. Steel

Will the Minister expand a little on that answer? Why is it difficult to consider non-urban centres when one of the problems we face today is the overcrowding of our cities? Surely this was an opportunity to move at least some of the smaller Government Departments into the small towns of this country?

Mr. Baker

In previous dispersal exercises those groups which engaged in self-contained executive work have gone and that sort of work can be dispersed away from communications centres. But it is difficult to disperse policy work to an area which is not a good communications centre. The hon. Member is concerned about research bodies. The Agricultural Research Council, for example, was recommended for Manchester because the main dispersal of that Department was to Manchester. The child has followed the parent in this matter.

Mr. Sheldon

Does the Minister recall that the Hardman Committee said that the report was a basis for discussion? I hope that it is in that light that the Minister will be considering many of its statements. In particular, is he not aware that whereas the report showed the opportunities for improvements in rail travel and the effect these would have on dispersal, it did not go into nearly enough detail about improvements in air travel, which is a problem that affects Scotland particularly. No forecast was made of such improvements into the 1980s. Will the Minister remedy what appears to be a defect here?

Mr. Baker

I am only too pleased to hear representations on this score. One of the attractions of Teesside is the good air communications which exist, but it is also true that it is possible to fly to Glasgow in an hour. It is not, however, a question of distance but the frequency with which the civil servants have to make the journey. I am only too pleased to listen to representations. I shall receive representations from the staff side and from the Civil Service unions.

Mr. Proudfoot

My hon. Friend almost makes it sound as though civil servants had not discovered modern communications by telephone, and other modern methods. May I ask him, in any discussions with the civil servants, to represent London and the South-East as being an environmental disaster area and to say that the quality of life is so much better in the regions that people should be bursting to come to us?

Mr. Baker

I shall welcome representations from my hon. Friend. Perhaps he should speak to some of the civil service unions about the matter. One of the encouraging things about Hardman is that where we have dispersed over the past 10 years we have had a very successful record. On the whole, those civil servants who have gone to the regions have not regretted it.

Mr. James Hamilton

Is the Minister aware that the Scottish Parliamentary Labour Group has discussed the Hardman Report and has come to the conclusion that if it is fully implemented it will be a real body blow to the people of Scotland? Is he aware that a representation is en route to him that we should have a meeting with him as soon as possible to put our case? I should like an assurance from him that no final decision will be taken by the Cabinet without the strong representation of the Secretary of State for Scotland being heard on the matter.

Mr. Baker

I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are prepared to listen to all representations. I am glad to know that representation is coming from his own area in Glasgow. Over 20 per cent. of all posts dispersed from London since 1963 have gone to Scotland, and the plum of the 1963 dispersal—the Post Office Savings Bank—went to Cowglen.

35. Sir A. Meyer

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects to announce the Government's decision on implementing the recommendations of the Hardman Report.

Mr. Kenneth Baker

The Government expect to announce decisions by the end of the year, after considering the complex questions raised by the report in the light of such arguments and views as are put to them.

Sir A. Meyer

Is my hon. Friend aware that North Wales is the Cinderella of the regions, remembered by successive Governments only when there is something unpleasant to be dished out, like the closing down of steelworks, and that we badly need our fair share of goodies in the form of roads and new clerical jobs?

Mr. Baker

I am very much aware of what my hon. Friend says. He has been to see me with a delegation from his local authorities. The amount of dispersal to Wales is a high proportion of the whole. I appreciate that it is to South Wales, and that the first recommendation of Hardman is that about 5,500 posts should go to South Wales. If my hon. Friend wishes to see me again with the various interests of North Wales, I shall be only too pleased to see him and hear his representations.

Mr. Maclennan

Is the Minister aware that his reply to the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) about dispersal to non-urban areas will not be welcomed in Scotland generally? Further, is he aware that such dispersal displays a remarkable lack of imagination on behalf of the Government? Is he aware that the location of the Superannuation Office of the Atomic Energy Authority in the small burgh of Thurso happened a number of years ago and has been most successful? Will the hon. Gentleman consider that as a model for future dispersal?

Mr. Baker

I re-emphasise that during the last dispersal exercise Scotland generally received some 20 per cent. of the dispersal. I am only too pleased to receive representations. There are a great deal of closely argued factors in Hardman. If any hon. Member can persuade me that we should go beyond the Glasgow conurbations I shall be only too pleased to listen.

Mr. Douglas

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that some hon. Members are having extreme difficulty warding off criticism about the Hardman Report? Will he and his Ministry examine the communications use and recommendations in the Report and present the Government's view about communications in particular to the House?

Mr. Baker

The hon. Gentleman has stressed an important point. Hardman has been balancing, on the one hand, the gain to the regions, particularly by helping to counter the regional imbalance in the lack of clerical work for women, against less communication. He makes clear that he has made a personal judgment. This is very much a matter for Ministers to decide. We have said that we want to listen to representations. I must emphasise that my door is open and that I am willing to receive delegations from any area or from any hon. Member.